SBS V Linux

its getting harder to sell sbs when people can get linux
for free

what do you guys think when customers say that?

Susan
Sun Aug 10 13:23:57 CDT 2003

SCO announced at Linuxworld that it would require all Linux users to pay
$699 per installed OS. That lawsuit is still a bit iffy

There is currently no "suite" package equivalent to the bundle you get
in SBS. Futhermore, Mariette notwithstanding, most people are not even
good enough in Linux to do the basics in it.

You cannot compare the two in a small business. The economics of the
suite overshadow the the "freeness" of Linux. Furthermore as a Red Hat
customer, if I want to ensure I get on the "priority" for patch updates,
I must pay for a subscription.

Linux technicians in my city are harder to find and don't typically work
for small businesses. The time it would take to recreate the "value" I
have in SBS would be way to much man hours of research, time,
testing....etc. the costs of my time to recreate what comes in a bundle
that I can easily manage is way too much.

Shavlik won't run on that Linux server. I would not install any sized
network system these days without a "firm" patch management.

Next, I have the issue that some of my killer line of business
applications indicate they don't support Linux as a server.

Gotta pick your tool. Linux has it's place as a file and print server,
as a forensic and security tool, but in my line of business, it doesn't
economically make sense.

Susan
The bean counter.

Mr Folks wrote:

> its getting harder to sell sbs when people can get linux
> for free
>
> what do you guys think when customers say that?

--
"Don't lose sight of security. Security is a state of being, not a
state of budget. He with the most firewalls still does not win.
Put down that honeypot and keep up to date on your patches. Demand
better security from vendors and hold them responsible. Use what
you have, and make sure you know how to use it properly and
effectively."
~ Rain Forest Puppy

http://www.wiretrip.net/rfp/txt/evolution.txt

Susan
Sun Aug 10 14:26:10 CDT 2003

The Register:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/53/32187.html

After October 15th they want $1,399.
Welcome to where the open source movement collides with American Capitalism
and Attorneys. Nothing is free. Everything costs.


"Susan Bradley, CPA aka Ebitz SBS Rocks [MVP]" wrote:

> SCO announced at Linuxworld that it would require all Linux users to pay
> $699 per installed OS. That lawsuit is still a bit iffy
>
> There is currently no "suite" package equivalent to the bundle you get
> in SBS. Futhermore, Mariette notwithstanding, most people are not even
> good enough in Linux to do the basics in it.
>
> You cannot compare the two in a small business. The economics of the
> suite overshadow the the "freeness" of Linux. Furthermore as a Red Hat
> customer, if I want to ensure I get on the "priority" for patch updates,
> I must pay for a subscription.
>
> Linux technicians in my city are harder to find and don't typically work
> for small businesses. The time it would take to recreate the "value" I
> have in SBS would be way to much man hours of research, time,
> testing....etc. the costs of my time to recreate what comes in a bundle
> that I can easily manage is way too much.
>
> Shavlik won't run on that Linux server. I would not install any sized
> network system these days without a "firm" patch management.
>
> Next, I have the issue that some of my killer line of business
> applications indicate they don't support Linux as a server.
>
> Gotta pick your tool. Linux has it's place as a file and print server,
> as a forensic and security tool, but in my line of business, it doesn't
> economically make sense.
>
> Susan
> The bean counter.
>
> Mr Folks wrote:
>
> > its getting harder to sell sbs when people can get linux
> > for free
> >
> > what do you guys think when customers say that?
>
> --
> "Don't lose sight of security. Security is a state of being, not a
> state of budget. He with the most firewalls still does not win.
> Put down that honeypot and keep up to date on your patches. Demand
> better security from vendors and hold them responsible. Use what
> you have, and make sure you know how to use it properly and
> effectively."
> ~ Rain Forest Puppy
>
> http://www.wiretrip.net/rfp/txt/evolution.txt

--
"Don't lose sight of security. Security is a state of being, not a
state of budget. He with the most firewalls still does not win.
Put down that honeypot and keep up to date on your patches. Demand
better security from vendors and hold them responsible. Use what
you have, and make sure you know how to use it properly and effectively."
~ Rain Forest Puppy

http://www.wiretrip.net/rfp/txt/evolution.txt

Garry
Sun Aug 10 15:11:32 CDT 2003

Not that I agree it is a legitimate alternative, but...Mitel SME Server
could be classed as a "suite" equivalent.

--
Garry Martin


"Susan Bradley, CPA aka Ebitz SBS Rocks [MVP]" <sbradcpa@pacbell.net> wrote
in message news:3F368DBD.F5A7C5E9@pacbell.net...
> SCO announced at Linuxworld that it would require all Linux users to pay
> $699 per installed OS. That lawsuit is still a bit iffy
>
> There is currently no "suite" package equivalent to the bundle you get
> in SBS. Futhermore, Mariette notwithstanding, most people are not even
> good enough in Linux to do the basics in it.
>
> You cannot compare the two in a small business. The economics of the
> suite overshadow the the "freeness" of Linux. Furthermore as a Red Hat
> customer, if I want to ensure I get on the "priority" for patch updates,
> I must pay for a subscription.
>
> Linux technicians in my city are harder to find and don't typically work
> for small businesses. The time it would take to recreate the "value" I
> have in SBS would be way to much man hours of research, time,
> testing....etc. the costs of my time to recreate what comes in a bundle
> that I can easily manage is way too much.
>
> Shavlik won't run on that Linux server. I would not install any sized
> network system these days without a "firm" patch management.
>
> Next, I have the issue that some of my killer line of business
> applications indicate they don't support Linux as a server.
>
> Gotta pick your tool. Linux has it's place as a file and print server,
> as a forensic and security tool, but in my line of business, it doesn't
> economically make sense.
>
> Susan
> The bean counter.
>
> Mr Folks wrote:
>
> > its getting harder to sell sbs when people can get linux
> > for free
> >
> > what do you guys think when customers say that?
>
> --
> "Don't lose sight of security. Security is a state of being, not a
> state of budget. He with the most firewalls still does not win.
> Put down that honeypot and keep up to date on your patches. Demand
> better security from vendors and hold them responsible. Use what
> you have, and make sure you know how to use it properly and
> effectively."
> ~ Rain Forest Puppy
>
> http://www.wiretrip.net/rfp/txt/evolution.txt
>
>

Susan
Sun Aug 10 15:37:34 CDT 2003

As a business owner, putting my eggs into a basket of a firm that "gives away"
code.... open source has no business model for future revenue. People have to
eat. Food. They need shelter. I can't build my business on the backbone of
software that isn't there for the long haul. A business cannot live on giving
away software.

Show me the 10k for E-smith/Mitel. How long have they been in business?
What's their track record? I need someone there to provide support and
updates.

And that's on the 2.4 kernel which SCO is going after.

Again.... in the way that the world truly works.... no one can give away stuff
and truly be a business for the long haul. You just can't run business that
way.

Garry Martin wrote:

> Not that I agree it is a legitimate alternative, but...Mitel SME Server
> could be classed as a "suite" equivalent.
>
> --
> Garry Martin
>
> "Susan Bradley, CPA aka Ebitz SBS Rocks [MVP]" <sbradcpa@pacbell.net> wrote
> in message news:3F368DBD.F5A7C5E9@pacbell.net...
> > SCO announced at Linuxworld that it would require all Linux users to pay
> > $699 per installed OS. That lawsuit is still a bit iffy
> >
> > There is currently no "suite" package equivalent to the bundle you get
> > in SBS. Futhermore, Mariette notwithstanding, most people are not even
> > good enough in Linux to do the basics in it.
> >
> > You cannot compare the two in a small business. The economics of the
> > suite overshadow the the "freeness" of Linux. Furthermore as a Red Hat
> > customer, if I want to ensure I get on the "priority" for patch updates,
> > I must pay for a subscription.
> >
> > Linux technicians in my city are harder to find and don't typically work
> > for small businesses. The time it would take to recreate the "value" I
> > have in SBS would be way to much man hours of research, time,
> > testing....etc. the costs of my time to recreate what comes in a bundle
> > that I can easily manage is way too much.
> >
> > Shavlik won't run on that Linux server. I would not install any sized
> > network system these days without a "firm" patch management.
> >
> > Next, I have the issue that some of my killer line of business
> > applications indicate they don't support Linux as a server.
> >
> > Gotta pick your tool. Linux has it's place as a file and print server,
> > as a forensic and security tool, but in my line of business, it doesn't
> > economically make sense.
> >
> > Susan
> > The bean counter.
> >
> > Mr Folks wrote:
> >
> > > its getting harder to sell sbs when people can get linux
> > > for free
> > >
> > > what do you guys think when customers say that?
> >
> > --
> > "Don't lose sight of security. Security is a state of being, not a
> > state of budget. He with the most firewalls still does not win.
> > Put down that honeypot and keep up to date on your patches. Demand
> > better security from vendors and hold them responsible. Use what
> > you have, and make sure you know how to use it properly and
> > effectively."
> > ~ Rain Forest Puppy
> >
> > http://www.wiretrip.net/rfp/txt/evolution.txt
> >
> >

--
"Don't lose sight of security. Security is a state of being, not a
state of budget. He with the most firewalls still does not win.
Put down that honeypot and keep up to date on your patches. Demand
better security from vendors and hold them responsible. Use what
you have, and make sure you know how to use it properly and effectively."
~ Rain Forest Puppy

http://www.wiretrip.net/rfp/txt/evolution.txt

Mr
Sun Aug 10 17:46:10 CDT 2003

i thought linux was written by volunteers cos they like
giving things to the comunity?




>-----Original Message-----
>As a business owner, putting my eggs into a basket of a
firm that "gives away"
>code.... open source has no business model for future
revenue. People have to
>eat. Food. They need shelter. I can't build my
business on the backbone of
>software that isn't there for the long haul. A business
cannot live on giving
>away software.
>
>Show me the 10k for E-smith/Mitel. How long have they
been in business?
>What's their track record? I need someone there to
provide support and
>updates.
>
>And that's on the 2.4 kernel which SCO is going after.
>
>Again.... in the way that the world truly works.... no
one can give away stuff
>and truly be a business for the long haul. You just
can't run business that
>way.
>
>Garry Martin wrote:
>
>> Not that I agree it is a legitimate alternative,
but...Mitel SME Server
>> could be classed as a "suite" equivalent.
>>
>> --
>> Garry Martin
>>
>> "Susan Bradley, CPA aka Ebitz SBS Rocks [MVP]"
<sbradcpa@pacbell.net> wrote
>> in message news:3F368DBD.F5A7C5E9@pacbell.net...
>> > SCO announced at Linuxworld that it would require
all Linux users to pay
>> > $699 per installed OS. That lawsuit is still a bit
iffy
>> >
>> > There is currently no "suite" package equivalent to
the bundle you get
>> > in SBS. Futhermore, Mariette notwithstanding, most
people are not even
>> > good enough in Linux to do the basics in it.
>> >
>> > You cannot compare the two in a small business. The
economics of the
>> > suite overshadow the the "freeness" of Linux.
Furthermore as a Red Hat
>> > customer, if I want to ensure I get on
the "priority" for patch updates,
>> > I must pay for a subscription.
>> >
>> > Linux technicians in my city are harder to find and
don't typically work
>> > for small businesses. The time it would take to
recreate the "value" I
>> > have in SBS would be way to much man hours of
research, time,
>> > testing....etc. the costs of my time to recreate
what comes in a bundle
>> > that I can easily manage is way too much.
>> >
>> > Shavlik won't run on that Linux server. I would not
install any sized
>> > network system these days without a "firm" patch
management.
>> >
>> > Next, I have the issue that some of my killer line
of business
>> > applications indicate they don't support Linux as a
server.
>> >
>> > Gotta pick your tool. Linux has it's place as a
file and print server,
>> > as a forensic and security tool, but in my line of
business, it doesn't
>> > economically make sense.
>> >
>> > Susan
>> > The bean counter.
>> >
>> > Mr Folks wrote:
>> >
>> > > its getting harder to sell sbs when people can get
linux
>> > > for free
>> > >
>> > > what do you guys think when customers say that?
>> >
>> > --
>> > "Don't lose sight of security. Security is a state
of being, not a
>> > state of budget. He with the most firewalls still
does not win.
>> > Put down that honeypot and keep up to date on your
patches. Demand
>> > better security from vendors and hold them
responsible. Use what
>> > you have, and make sure you know how to use it
properly and
>> > effectively."
>> > ~ Rain Forest Puppy
>> >
>> > http://www.wiretrip.net/rfp/txt/evolution.txt
>> >
>> >
>
>--
>"Don't lose sight of security. Security is a state of
being, not a
>state of budget. He with the most firewalls still does
not win.
>Put down that honeypot and keep up to date on your
patches. Demand
>better security from vendors and hold them responsible.
Use what
>you have, and make sure you know how to use it properly
and effectively."
> ~ Rain Forest Puppy
>
>http://www.wiretrip.net/rfp/txt/evolution.txt
>
>
>.
>

VikingBrad
Sun Aug 10 19:21:48 CDT 2003

>-----Original Message-----
>its getting harder to sell sbs when people can get linux
>for free
>
>what do you guys think when customers say that?

SBS2K is still good value compared to open source
solutions. What I have done for a few companies is not
purchase MS Office and instead use OpenOffice.org.

Clients can then immediately see cost savings and since
they have SBS2K they get an Outlook license.

If they then decide they must have MS Word then I either
offer MS Works Suite 2003 or full Office and make healthy
margin.

I make most $s of services not product margin and in that
regard linux solutions means more hours at higher margin
than MS solutions.

But I know MS solutions better than linux so I prefer to
recommend MS.

Cheers
VikingBrad

David
Sun Aug 10 20:43:50 CDT 2003

On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 10:42:20 -0700, "Mr Folks"
<folks@folkscomputers.com> wrote:

>its getting harder to sell sbs when people can get linux
>for free
>
>what do you guys think when customers say that?
>
>

I've looked at some Linux-based products that were aimed to the same
functionality as SBS. None of them were or are free. (Yes, I know
about Novell's SBS deal, but you pay full price the moment you need
more than 5 licenses and I am going to get 15 CAL's total for my
business.)

I asked our contract video engineer if any of the companies he
consulted for were interested in Linux. Apparently, I was the only
one asking the question. I would be very interested in a Linux-based
teleprompter but I don't expect *that* to be free, either.

In my market segment, there are very few coders. If it doesn't come
packaged and supported, there's no interest. I can't say that I blame
them. I use Debian on my second machine at home and I use The GIMP
for video graphics so I know Linux, but at the time I was retiring our
SBS 4.5 machine and looking for a replacement, I wasn't comfortable
with what little was out there, basically IBM Small Business
(Linux-based) and Novell's SBS. There was no way I was going to
integrate something from scratch.

I know SuSE and OpenGroupware are looking at this space with their
Exchange workalikes., but they will have to do much, much more for
their prospects than to just say "Redmond Bad!" I wish them luck.

Take care,

Dave

J
Tue Aug 12 15:32:08 CDT 2003

OK...I'll jump in.

> its getting harder to sell sbs when people can get linux
> for free
>
> what do you guys think when customers say that?

I live with the fact that I have to support Linux and SBS. Which is why
awhile back I bought a cheap Dell server and installed Linux in my Office.
I was actually surprised how stable and useful the server is. Sometimes the
nightmare called Exchange makes me want to run from SBS anyway.

I am finding myself in another position: trying to convince existing clients
to move away from SBS. The upgrade costs are too much for many small
businesses to stomach. I still have a couple of SBS 4.5 sites out there
because they don't want to pay to move to 2000. And ISA Server is SO MUCH
better than Proxy 2.0...same can be said for SQL 2000 vs. 7.0.

So I am the one offering Linux, Sendmail and PostgreSQL...

What a guy.

Joe

David
Wed Aug 20 04:13:13 CDT 2003

...and if everyone sold Linux boxes instead of MS/SBS boxes eventually Linux
would be bigger and the script kiddies would go pick the holes in that
instead... problem doesn't go away by running from it - same situation
applies - you need to ensure that things are properly patched in a manner
that suits both you and your customers - what about remote VPN access for
support? That would surely work better than visiting 200 sites?

MS themselves ain't the problem here - it's the gits that try to throw
stones at them [with scripts etc] simply because they're the biggest kid on
the block.

Just my tuppenceworth.

David



"Aart Jansen" <aart*ihatespam*@hayes.co.nz> wrote in message
news:2Uy0b.121179$JA5.2771740@news.xtra.co.nz...
> Thats odd theres lots of people in NZ who use linux, and support it for
> small business, I don't, but would like to. The whole price issue is
> irrelevant to me, but going to 200 sites to patch for the latest worm, and
> all expecting you on the same day, is too much for me. I see my linux
using
> friends enjoying their free time / or doing something more constructive
than
> me, while I am busier than ever with a patch. And for what? some smart
> assed coder whose chosen MS as a target yet again. a) cos its most
> vulnerable, b) Cos its extremely prevalent.
>
> Thats the greatest reason I know of for people to look elsewhere.
>
> "J. M. De Moor" <nospam@spamlessobjectpac.com> wrote in message
> news:%23v8VODRYDHA.1640@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> > OK...I'll jump in.
> >
> > > its getting harder to sell sbs when people can get linux
> > > for free
> > >
> > > what do you guys think when customers say that?
> >
> > I live with the fact that I have to support Linux and SBS. Which is why
> > awhile back I bought a cheap Dell server and installed Linux in my
Office.
> > I was actually surprised how stable and useful the server is. Sometimes
> the
> > nightmare called Exchange makes me want to run from SBS anyway.
> >
> > I am finding myself in another position: trying to convince existing
> clients
> > to move away from SBS. The upgrade costs are too much for many small
> > businesses to stomach. I still have a couple of SBS 4.5 sites out there
> > because they don't want to pay to move to 2000. And ISA Server is SO
MUCH
> > better than Proxy 2.0...same can be said for SQL 2000 vs. 7.0.
> >
> > So I am the one offering Linux, Sendmail and PostgreSQL...
> >
> > What a guy.
> >
> > Joe
> >
> >
>
>