Productivity: WebForms vs. WinForms

Although an impossible question to answer, I fell urged to raise it anyhow.



Given a fairly complex ERP application scenario, what's your estimation for
the X-ratio



dev. time for WebForms app

----------------------------------- = X

dev. time for WinForms app



?



My own experiences tell me that it should be about 2, but peers differ in
opinion. Some agree, some says 1, and some says 3...



Regards,

// Martin Rosén-Lidholm



PS Sorry for the cross post, but I really would like to hear both camps'
views on this subject.

Martin
Mon Jun 21 07:27:22 CDT 2004

Hi Martin,

In my view, this aspect of the development should be driven from the
requirements than the timescales.

Naturally existing skill set plays a part, but deployment and maintenance
are significant differences between these technologies.

I would guess you have an ulterior motive for asking this question.

Martin

"Martin Rosén-Lidholm" <martin_rosenlidholm@snabel-a.msn.com> wrote in
message news:Oq$GsQ4VEHA.3988@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> Although an impossible question to answer, I fell urged to raise it
anyhow.
>
>
>
> Given a fairly complex ERP application scenario, what's your estimation
for
> the X-ratio
>
>
>
> dev. time for WebForms app
>
> ----------------------------------- = X
>
> dev. time for WinForms app
>
>
>
> ?
>
>
>
> My own experiences tell me that it should be about 2, but peers differ in
> opinion. Some agree, some says 1, and some says 3...
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> // Martin Rosén-Lidholm
>
>
>
> PS Sorry for the cross post, but I really would like to hear both camps'
> views on this subject.
>
>

Martin
Mon Jun 21 08:41:47 CDT 2004

Martin,

Thank you for your reply.

No, my motives aren't ulterior ;-)

I've come to the conclusion that the functional and non-functional
requirements of the project at hand can be met with both technologies.

Since I believe it'll take us twice the time using WebForms (the skill set
is very diverse and not in favor of any of the two), I'd like to notify
management about this.

However, my belief isn't shared, so I tried to broaden the discussion base
with this thread.

// Martin


"Martin" <x@y.z> wrote in message
news:%23q3kbs4VEHA.3472@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> Hi Martin,
>
> In my view, this aspect of the development should be driven from the
> requirements than the timescales.
>
> Naturally existing skill set plays a part, but deployment and maintenance
> are significant differences between these technologies.
>
> I would guess you have an ulterior motive for asking this question.
>
> Martin
>
> "Martin Rosén-Lidholm" <martin_rosenlidholm@snabel-a.msn.com> wrote in
> message news:Oq$GsQ4VEHA.3988@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> > Although an impossible question to answer, I fell urged to raise it
> anyhow.
> >
> >
> >
> > Given a fairly complex ERP application scenario, what's your estimation
> for
> > the X-ratio
> >
> >
> >
> > dev. time for WebForms app
> >
> > ----------------------------------- = X
> >
> > dev. time for WinForms app
> >
> >
> >
> > ?
> >
> >
> >
> > My own experiences tell me that it should be about 2, but peers differ
in
> > opinion. Some agree, some says 1, and some says 3...
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > // Martin Rosén-Lidholm
> >
> >
> >
> > PS Sorry for the cross post, but I really would like to hear both camps'
> > views on this subject.
> >
> >
>
>

Martin
Mon Jun 21 09:41:59 CDT 2004

If you were your own boss, which would you use? (Sounds like windows
forms).

Who's going to use the system, and how many users to you have?

Do you have a brief system spec you'd like to share with us?

Martin


"Martin Rosén-Lidholm" <martin_rosenlidholm@snabel-a.msn.com> wrote in
message news:uHTk0S5VEHA.1152@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> Martin,
>
> Thank you for your reply.
>
> No, my motives aren't ulterior ;-)
>
> I've come to the conclusion that the functional and non-functional
> requirements of the project at hand can be met with both technologies.
>
> Since I believe it'll take us twice the time using WebForms (the skill set
> is very diverse and not in favor of any of the two), I'd like to notify
> management about this.
>
> However, my belief isn't shared, so I tried to broaden the discussion base
> with this thread.
>
> // Martin
>
>
> "Martin" <x@y.z> wrote in message
> news:%23q3kbs4VEHA.3472@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> > Hi Martin,
> >
> > In my view, this aspect of the development should be driven from the
> > requirements than the timescales.
> >
> > Naturally existing skill set plays a part, but deployment and
maintenance
> > are significant differences between these technologies.
> >
> > I would guess you have an ulterior motive for asking this question.
> >
> > Martin
> >
> > "Martin Rosén-Lidholm" <martin_rosenlidholm@snabel-a.msn.com> wrote in
> > message news:Oq$GsQ4VEHA.3988@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> > > Although an impossible question to answer, I fell urged to raise it
> > anyhow.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Given a fairly complex ERP application scenario, what's your
estimation
> > for
> > > the X-ratio
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > dev. time for WebForms app
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------- = X
> > >
> > > dev. time for WinForms app
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > My own experiences tell me that it should be about 2, but peers differ
> in
> > > opinion. Some agree, some says 1, and some says 3...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > // Martin Rosén-Lidholm
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > PS Sorry for the cross post, but I really would like to hear both
camps'
> > > views on this subject.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Martin
Mon Jun 21 10:49:15 CDT 2004

Inline.

"Martin" <x@y.z> wrote in message
news:ODi3p35VEHA.1380@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> If you were your own boss, which would you use? (Sounds like windows
> forms).
- WinForms, for productivity reasons.

> Who's going to use the system, and how many users to you have?
- Between 15 and 500 users per site/customer.

- We also have personas identified where the super users are prio 1.

> Do you have a brief system spec you'd like to share with us?
- I'd say "Template 1A Enterprise Resource Planning" (order, inventory,
invoicing, and purchase) with detail and summary views, search, reporting,
and so forth.

- In other words; nothing unique other than our deep knowledge of the domain
at hand.

// Martin


> Martin
>
>
> "Martin Rosén-Lidholm" <martin_rosenlidholm@snabel-a.msn.com> wrote in
> message news:uHTk0S5VEHA.1152@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> > Martin,
> >
> > Thank you for your reply.
> >
> > No, my motives aren't ulterior ;-)
> >
> > I've come to the conclusion that the functional and non-functional
> > requirements of the project at hand can be met with both technologies.
> >
> > Since I believe it'll take us twice the time using WebForms (the skill
set
> > is very diverse and not in favor of any of the two), I'd like to notify
> > management about this.
> >
> > However, my belief isn't shared, so I tried to broaden the discussion
base
> > with this thread.
> >
> > // Martin
> >
> >
> > "Martin" <x@y.z> wrote in message
> > news:%23q3kbs4VEHA.3472@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> > > Hi Martin,
> > >
> > > In my view, this aspect of the development should be driven from the
> > > requirements than the timescales.
> > >
> > > Naturally existing skill set plays a part, but deployment and
> maintenance
> > > are significant differences between these technologies.
> > >
> > > I would guess you have an ulterior motive for asking this question.
> > >
> > > Martin
> > >
> > > "Martin Rosén-Lidholm" <martin_rosenlidholm@snabel-a.msn.com> wrote in
> > > message news:Oq$GsQ4VEHA.3988@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> > > > Although an impossible question to answer, I fell urged to raise it
> > > anyhow.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Given a fairly complex ERP application scenario, what's your
> estimation
> > > for
> > > > the X-ratio
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > dev. time for WebForms app
> > > >
> > > > ----------------------------------- = X
> > > >
> > > > dev. time for WinForms app
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > My own experiences tell me that it should be about 2, but peers
differ
> > in
> > > > opinion. Some agree, some says 1, and some says 3...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > >
> > > > // Martin Rosén-Lidholm
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > PS Sorry for the cross post, but I really would like to hear both
> camps'
> > > > views on this subject.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

pdavis68
Mon Jun 21 12:17:19 CDT 2004

I don't know that I'd say it's 2:1. I think there are a lot of factors
involved, but I think someone quite comfortable with WebForms will have
little difficulty matching the productivity of a winform developer for the
same app, with some qualifications...

The qualificatiosn include things like, will the web version require special
controls that the winform version won't? Will you need to be transferring
data from the user's local machine? If so, that adds a measure of
complexity.

If you're talking a simple business data-entry application type thing, I
don't think a webform is inherently more complex, or at least not
significantly so. Certainly not 2X, maybe 1.2X. But this assumes equal skill
sets in both.

There are significantly different considerations with each, though.

There's no question that the maintenance aspect of a web app is much lower,
though. You don't have to worry about different machine configurations and
such which can always lead to maintenance nightmares for WinForm apps. You
don't really have to worry about anything (like the .NET framework) being
installed on the user's machine. They simply need to have a web browser
that's compatible. So, from a maintenance side, you can generally save a ton
of time = money going with web forms.

That said, I do primarily WinForm apps because I prefer the responsive
experience to the web experience, and I think a lot of people feel that way,
but I can turn out web apps about as fast as I can winform apps. But if I'm
doing something for a customer with lots of users and I have the choice, I
go with WebForms.

Pete

"Martin Rosén-Lidholm" <martin_rosenlidholm@snabel-a.msn.com> wrote in
message news:upLcDa6VEHA.2844@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> Inline.
>
> "Martin" <x@y.z> wrote in message
> news:ODi3p35VEHA.1380@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> > If you were your own boss, which would you use? (Sounds like windows
> > forms).
> - WinForms, for productivity reasons.
>
> > Who's going to use the system, and how many users to you have?
> - Between 15 and 500 users per site/customer.
>
> - We also have personas identified where the super users are prio 1.
>
> > Do you have a brief system spec you'd like to share with us?
> - I'd say "Template 1A Enterprise Resource Planning" (order, inventory,
> invoicing, and purchase) with detail and summary views, search, reporting,
> and so forth.
>
> - In other words; nothing unique other than our deep knowledge of the
domain
> at hand.
>
> // Martin
>
>
> > Martin
> >
> >
> > "Martin Rosén-Lidholm" <martin_rosenlidholm@snabel-a.msn.com> wrote in
> > message news:uHTk0S5VEHA.1152@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> > > Martin,
> > >
> > > Thank you for your reply.
> > >
> > > No, my motives aren't ulterior ;-)
> > >
> > > I've come to the conclusion that the functional and non-functional
> > > requirements of the project at hand can be met with both technologies.
> > >
> > > Since I believe it'll take us twice the time using WebForms (the skill
> set
> > > is very diverse and not in favor of any of the two), I'd like to
notify
> > > management about this.
> > >
> > > However, my belief isn't shared, so I tried to broaden the discussion
> base
> > > with this thread.
> > >
> > > // Martin
> > >
> > >
> > > "Martin" <x@y.z> wrote in message
> > > news:%23q3kbs4VEHA.3472@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> > > > Hi Martin,
> > > >
> > > > In my view, this aspect of the development should be driven from the
> > > > requirements than the timescales.
> > > >
> > > > Naturally existing skill set plays a part, but deployment and
> > maintenance
> > > > are significant differences between these technologies.
> > > >
> > > > I would guess you have an ulterior motive for asking this question.
> > > >
> > > > Martin
> > > >
> > > > "Martin Rosén-Lidholm" <martin_rosenlidholm@snabel-a.msn.com> wrote
in
> > > > message news:Oq$GsQ4VEHA.3988@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> > > > > Although an impossible question to answer, I fell urged to raise
it
> > > > anyhow.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Given a fairly complex ERP application scenario, what's your
> > estimation
> > > > for
> > > > > the X-ratio
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > dev. time for WebForms app
> > > > >
> > > > > ----------------------------------- = X
> > > > >
> > > > > dev. time for WinForms app
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > My own experiences tell me that it should be about 2, but peers
> differ
> > > in
> > > > > opinion. Some agree, some says 1, and some says 3...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > >
> > > > > // Martin Rosén-Lidholm
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > PS Sorry for the cross post, but I really would like to hear both
> > camps'
> > > > > views on this subject.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Martin
Mon Jun 21 12:20:40 CDT 2004

I suppose the question is can you foresee a situation where they would want
to use it over the internet?

Unless you design it accordingly, it will run like a dog over VPN. WebForms
would encourage good remote performance from the start.

Also you might reap long term benefits if you build on top of web
services. - integration with suppliers and other business partners?

Martin


"Martin Rosén-Lidholm" <martin_rosenlidholm@snabel-a.msn.com> wrote in
message news:upLcDa6VEHA.2844@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> Inline.
>
> "Martin" <x@y.z> wrote in message
> news:ODi3p35VEHA.1380@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> > If you were your own boss, which would you use? (Sounds like windows
> > forms).
> - WinForms, for productivity reasons.
>
> > Who's going to use the system, and how many users to you have?
> - Between 15 and 500 users per site/customer.
>
> - We also have personas identified where the super users are prio 1.
>
> > Do you have a brief system spec you'd like to share with us?
> - I'd say "Template 1A Enterprise Resource Planning" (order, inventory,
> invoicing, and purchase) with detail and summary views, search, reporting,
> and so forth.
>
> - In other words; nothing unique other than our deep knowledge of the
domain
> at hand.
>
> // Martin
>
>
> > Martin
> >
> >
> > "Martin Rosén-Lidholm" <martin_rosenlidholm@snabel-a.msn.com> wrote in
> > message news:uHTk0S5VEHA.1152@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> > > Martin,
> > >
> > > Thank you for your reply.
> > >
> > > No, my motives aren't ulterior ;-)
> > >
> > > I've come to the conclusion that the functional and non-functional
> > > requirements of the project at hand can be met with both technologies.
> > >
> > > Since I believe it'll take us twice the time using WebForms (the skill
> set
> > > is very diverse and not in favor of any of the two), I'd like to
notify
> > > management about this.
> > >
> > > However, my belief isn't shared, so I tried to broaden the discussion
> base
> > > with this thread.
> > >
> > > // Martin
> > >
> > >
> > > "Martin" <x@y.z> wrote in message
> > > news:%23q3kbs4VEHA.3472@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> > > > Hi Martin,
> > > >
> > > > In my view, this aspect of the development should be driven from the
> > > > requirements than the timescales.
> > > >
> > > > Naturally existing skill set plays a part, but deployment and
> > maintenance
> > > > are significant differences between these technologies.
> > > >
> > > > I would guess you have an ulterior motive for asking this question.
> > > >
> > > > Martin
> > > >
> > > > "Martin Rosén-Lidholm" <martin_rosenlidholm@snabel-a.msn.com> wrote
in
> > > > message news:Oq$GsQ4VEHA.3988@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> > > > > Although an impossible question to answer, I fell urged to raise
it
> > > > anyhow.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Given a fairly complex ERP application scenario, what's your
> > estimation
> > > > for
> > > > > the X-ratio
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > dev. time for WebForms app
> > > > >
> > > > > ----------------------------------- = X
> > > > >
> > > > > dev. time for WinForms app
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > My own experiences tell me that it should be about 2, but peers
> differ
> > > in
> > > > > opinion. Some agree, some says 1, and some says 3...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > >
> > > > > // Martin Rosén-Lidholm
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > PS Sorry for the cross post, but I really would like to hear both
> > camps'
> > > > > views on this subject.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Martin
Tue Jun 22 03:19:00 CDT 2004

My main concern is productivity, although maintenance and responsive GUI are
two *very* important aspects as well.

I have quite a lot of experience with web development with both rather fat
DHTML clients making RPCs and more traditional ASP solutions. In terms of
user experience, the first is possible to make close (but definitely no
cigar!) to the rich experience you can expect from a Windows app but take
very much time to develop. The second gives the user a very poor GUI but is
fairly equal in development costs (given a much poorer GUI as stated). I
have no commercial experiences with ASP.NET.

My main concern is that I'd like to give the users a reasonably rich user
experience. The way I see it, compared to a two-tiered WinForm solution with
all layers but the DB in the client, I must add a web server, the complexity
of maintaining state in a stateless environment (HTTP), duplication of
business logic (real time validation), ... Hence my 2:1 ratio.

Don't get me wrong - I really do want to be wrong about the productivity
issue, but I can't see how added complexity won't increase development time.

// Martin

<pdavis68@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:v-6dnRf-0dy-hUrdRVn-hQ@giganews.com...
> I don't know that I'd say it's 2:1. I think there are a lot of factors
> involved, but I think someone quite comfortable with WebForms will have
> little difficulty matching the productivity of a winform developer for the
> same app, with some qualifications...
>
> The qualificatiosn include things like, will the web version require
special
> controls that the winform version won't? Will you need to be transferring
> data from the user's local machine? If so, that adds a measure of
> complexity.
>
> If you're talking a simple business data-entry application type thing, I
> don't think a webform is inherently more complex, or at least not
> significantly so. Certainly not 2X, maybe 1.2X. But this assumes equal
skill
> sets in both.
>
> There are significantly different considerations with each, though.
>
> There's no question that the maintenance aspect of a web app is much
lower,
> though. You don't have to worry about different machine configurations and
> such which can always lead to maintenance nightmares for WinForm apps. You
> don't really have to worry about anything (like the .NET framework) being
> installed on the user's machine. They simply need to have a web browser
> that's compatible. So, from a maintenance side, you can generally save a
ton
> of time = money going with web forms.
>
> That said, I do primarily WinForm apps because I prefer the responsive
> experience to the web experience, and I think a lot of people feel that
way,
> but I can turn out web apps about as fast as I can winform apps. But if
I'm
> doing something for a customer with lots of users and I have the choice, I
> go with WebForms.
>
> Pete
>
> "Martin Rosén-Lidholm" <martin_rosenlidholm@snabel-a.msn.com> wrote in
> message news:upLcDa6VEHA.2844@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> > Inline.
> >
> > "Martin" <x@y.z> wrote in message
> > news:ODi3p35VEHA.1380@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> > > If you were your own boss, which would you use? (Sounds like windows
> > > forms).
> > - WinForms, for productivity reasons.
> >
> > > Who's going to use the system, and how many users to you have?
> > - Between 15 and 500 users per site/customer.
> >
> > - We also have personas identified where the super users are prio 1.
> >
> > > Do you have a brief system spec you'd like to share with us?
> > - I'd say "Template 1A Enterprise Resource Planning" (order, inventory,
> > invoicing, and purchase) with detail and summary views, search,
reporting,
> > and so forth.
> >
> > - In other words; nothing unique other than our deep knowledge of the
> domain
> > at hand.
> >
> > // Martin
> >
> >
> > > Martin
> > >
> > >
> > > "Martin Rosén-Lidholm" <martin_rosenlidholm@snabel-a.msn.com> wrote in
> > > message news:uHTk0S5VEHA.1152@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> > > > Martin,
> > > >
> > > > Thank you for your reply.
> > > >
> > > > No, my motives aren't ulterior ;-)
> > > >
> > > > I've come to the conclusion that the functional and non-functional
> > > > requirements of the project at hand can be met with both
technologies.
> > > >
> > > > Since I believe it'll take us twice the time using WebForms (the
skill
> > set
> > > > is very diverse and not in favor of any of the two), I'd like to
> notify
> > > > management about this.
> > > >
> > > > However, my belief isn't shared, so I tried to broaden the
discussion
> > base
> > > > with this thread.
> > > >
> > > > // Martin
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Martin" <x@y.z> wrote in message
> > > > news:%23q3kbs4VEHA.3472@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> > > > > Hi Martin,
> > > > >
> > > > > In my view, this aspect of the development should be driven from
the
> > > > > requirements than the timescales.
> > > > >
> > > > > Naturally existing skill set plays a part, but deployment and
> > > maintenance
> > > > > are significant differences between these technologies.
> > > > >
> > > > > I would guess you have an ulterior motive for asking this
question.
> > > > >
> > > > > Martin
> > > > >
> > > > > "Martin Rosén-Lidholm" <martin_rosenlidholm@snabel-a.msn.com>
wrote
> in
> > > > > message news:Oq$GsQ4VEHA.3988@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> > > > > > Although an impossible question to answer, I fell urged to raise
> it
> > > > > anyhow.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Given a fairly complex ERP application scenario, what's your
> > > estimation
> > > > > for
> > > > > > the X-ratio
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > dev. time for WebForms app
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----------------------------------- = X
> > > > > >
> > > > > > dev. time for WinForms app
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My own experiences tell me that it should be about 2, but peers
> > differ
> > > > in
> > > > > > opinion. Some agree, some says 1, and some says 3...
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > // Martin Rosén-Lidholm
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > PS Sorry for the cross post, but I really would like to hear
both
> > > camps'
> > > > > > views on this subject.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Martin
Tue Jun 29 02:45:27 CDT 2004


I find myself in the same situation as Espen Antonsen judging from this
quote:
"As a web developer I find many tasks more time consuming and difficult to
accomplish when building a web application - we develop a web-based ERP
system."

http://sleepyhead81.blogspot.com/2004/06/web-browser-changes-wanted.html

Regards,
// Martin Rosén-Lidholm


"Martin Rosén-Lidholm" <martin_rosenlidholm@snabel-a.msn.com> wrote in
message news:%23DELHDDWEHA.712@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
> My main concern is productivity, although maintenance and responsive GUI
are
> two *very* important aspects as well.
>
> I have quite a lot of experience with web development with both rather fat
> DHTML clients making RPCs and more traditional ASP solutions. In terms of
> user experience, the first is possible to make close (but definitely no
> cigar!) to the rich experience you can expect from a Windows app but take
> very much time to develop. The second gives the user a very poor GUI but
is
> fairly equal in development costs (given a much poorer GUI as stated). I
> have no commercial experiences with ASP.NET.
>
> My main concern is that I'd like to give the users a reasonably rich user
> experience. The way I see it, compared to a two-tiered WinForm solution
with
> all layers but the DB in the client, I must add a web server, the
complexity
> of maintaining state in a stateless environment (HTTP), duplication of
> business logic (real time validation), ... Hence my 2:1 ratio.
>
> Don't get me wrong - I really do want to be wrong about the productivity
> issue, but I can't see how added complexity won't increase development
time.
>
> // Martin
>
> <pdavis68@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:v-6dnRf-0dy-hUrdRVn-hQ@giganews.com...
> > I don't know that I'd say it's 2:1. I think there are a lot of factors
> > involved, but I think someone quite comfortable with WebForms will have
> > little difficulty matching the productivity of a winform developer for
the
> > same app, with some qualifications...
> >
> > The qualificatiosn include things like, will the web version require
> special
> > controls that the winform version won't? Will you need to be
transferring
> > data from the user's local machine? If so, that adds a measure of
> > complexity.
> >
> > If you're talking a simple business data-entry application type thing, I
> > don't think a webform is inherently more complex, or at least not
> > significantly so. Certainly not 2X, maybe 1.2X. But this assumes equal
> skill
> > sets in both.
> >
> > There are significantly different considerations with each, though.
> >
> > There's no question that the maintenance aspect of a web app is much
> lower,
> > though. You don't have to worry about different machine configurations
and
> > such which can always lead to maintenance nightmares for WinForm apps.
You
> > don't really have to worry about anything (like the .NET framework)
being
> > installed on the user's machine. They simply need to have a web browser
> > that's compatible. So, from a maintenance side, you can generally save a
> ton
> > of time = money going with web forms.
> >
> > That said, I do primarily WinForm apps because I prefer the responsive
> > experience to the web experience, and I think a lot of people feel that
> way,
> > but I can turn out web apps about as fast as I can winform apps. But if
> I'm
> > doing something for a customer with lots of users and I have the choice,
I
> > go with WebForms.
> >
> > Pete
> >
> > "Martin Rosén-Lidholm" <martin_rosenlidholm@snabel-a.msn.com> wrote in
> > message news:upLcDa6VEHA.2844@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> > > Inline.
> > >
> > > "Martin" <x@y.z> wrote in message
> > > news:ODi3p35VEHA.1380@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> > > > If you were your own boss, which would you use? (Sounds like
windows
> > > > forms).
> > > - WinForms, for productivity reasons.
> > >
> > > > Who's going to use the system, and how many users to you have?
> > > - Between 15 and 500 users per site/customer.
> > >
> > > - We also have personas identified where the super users are prio 1.
> > >
> > > > Do you have a brief system spec you'd like to share with us?
> > > - I'd say "Template 1A Enterprise Resource Planning" (order,
inventory,
> > > invoicing, and purchase) with detail and summary views, search,
> reporting,
> > > and so forth.
> > >
> > > - In other words; nothing unique other than our deep knowledge of the
> > domain
> > > at hand.
> > >
> > > // Martin
> > >
> > >
> > > > Martin
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Martin Rosén-Lidholm" <martin_rosenlidholm@snabel-a.msn.com> wrote
in
> > > > message news:uHTk0S5VEHA.1152@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> > > > > Martin,
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you for your reply.
> > > > >
> > > > > No, my motives aren't ulterior ;-)
> > > > >
> > > > > I've come to the conclusion that the functional and non-functional
> > > > > requirements of the project at hand can be met with both
> technologies.
> > > > >
> > > > > Since I believe it'll take us twice the time using WebForms (the
> skill
> > > set
> > > > > is very diverse and not in favor of any of the two), I'd like to
> > notify
> > > > > management about this.
> > > > >
> > > > > However, my belief isn't shared, so I tried to broaden the
> discussion
> > > base
> > > > > with this thread.
> > > > >
> > > > > // Martin
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Martin" <x@y.z> wrote in message
> > > > > news:%23q3kbs4VEHA.3472@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> > > > > > Hi Martin,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In my view, this aspect of the development should be driven from
> the
> > > > > > requirements than the timescales.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Naturally existing skill set plays a part, but deployment and
> > > > maintenance
> > > > > > are significant differences between these technologies.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I would guess you have an ulterior motive for asking this
> question.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Martin
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Martin Rosén-Lidholm" <martin_rosenlidholm@snabel-a.msn.com>
> wrote
> > in
> > > > > > message news:Oq$GsQ4VEHA.3988@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> > > > > > > Although an impossible question to answer, I fell urged to
raise
> > it
> > > > > > anyhow.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Given a fairly complex ERP application scenario, what's your
> > > > estimation
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > the X-ratio
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > dev. time for WebForms app
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----------------------------------- = X
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > dev. time for WinForms app
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > My own experiences tell me that it should be about 2, but
peers
> > > differ
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > opinion. Some agree, some says 1, and some says 3...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > // Martin Rosén-Lidholm
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > PS Sorry for the cross post, but I really would like to hear
> both
> > > > camps'
> > > > > > > views on this subject.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

mortb
Tue Jun 29 08:30:08 CDT 2004

I definitely second the notion that it's much harder build web applications
that provide a decent user experience!
What I'd develop in one day using winforms I sometimes find myself doing for
1/2 week using webforms and still the GUI is nowhere near the GUI a win
form would provide.

The main problem is that HTML is not made for building applications, it's a
format for displaying text.

If I'd restart my current project I'd look into making a winform client
communicating with webservices instead as it would be easier to write and
easier to use.
It's not true that you don't have to consider the user's configuartion when
riting a web app. What works in your browser will not always work for in
users.

/mortb

"Martin Rosén-Lidholm" <martin_rosenlidholm@snabel-a.msn.com> wrote in
message news:uBR66waXEHA.1888@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
>
> I find myself in the same situation as Espen Antonsen judging from this
> quote:
> "As a web developer I find many tasks more time consuming and difficult to
> accomplish when building a web application - we develop a web-based ERP
> system."
>
> http://sleepyhead81.blogspot.com/2004/06/web-browser-changes-wanted.html
>
> Regards,
> // Martin Rosén-Lidholm
>
>
> "Martin Rosén-Lidholm" <martin_rosenlidholm@snabel-a.msn.com> wrote in
> message news:%23DELHDDWEHA.712@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
> > My main concern is productivity, although maintenance and responsive GUI
>

Rob
Tue Jun 29 09:59:35 CDT 2004

> However, my belief isn't shared, so I tried to broaden the discussion base
> with this thread.

Are you getting "it must be a web app" stance even though it'll take
longer and possibly be less functional?

Rob.

mortb
Wed Jun 30 07:34:59 CDT 2004

Nowadays many solutions get developped as webapps just becuase it's thought
of as beeing much easier to develop,
for the users to get access to, scalable and that they have a greater
compabillity -- "it must be a web app".

These points are true for building non e.g complex applictaions that just
list data.

If you want to provide a really good user experience and fairly complex
behaviour. you have to be and qualified in
HTML-authoring,
asp.net coding,
java script coding,
cross-browser issues,
IIS-configuration,
and possibly Webdesign, SQL, XML and XSLT.

If you want a rich usr experience it's not just to grab som webcontrols and
drop them on a page like you wolud do in the much more mature winforms
environment.
You can buy some custom webcontrols but you don't know which will work and
which wont?
With all these different issues you'll easily head wrong at some part of the
project.

I say either webapps have to get easier to build and use or we'd be better
off going back to the fat client winforms "roots".

/mortb

"Rob Nicholson" <rob.nicholson@NOSPAM_informed-direct.com> wrote in message
news:eR%23n0meXEHA.1036@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> > However, my belief isn't shared, so I tried to broaden the discussion
base
> > with this thread.
>
> Are you getting "it must be a web app" stance even though it'll take
> longer and possibly be less functional?
>
> Rob.
>
>

Martin
Wed Jun 30 09:13:25 CDT 2004

Yes, exactly.

"Win apps are not modern."

All requirements points towards a WinForms app, the users have .NET FW and
WinXP, and with ClickOnce the major technical argument (deployment) for
WebForms falls short.

// Martin


"Rob Nicholson" <rob.nicholson@NOSPAM_informed-direct.com> wrote in message
news:eR%23n0meXEHA.1036@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> > However, my belief isn't shared, so I tried to broaden the discussion
base
> > with this thread.
>
> Are you getting "it must be a web app" stance even though it'll take
> longer and possibly be less functional?
>
> Rob.
>
>

Rob
Thu Jul 01 03:32:52 CDT 2004

> Nowadays many solutions get developped as webapps just becuase it's
thought
> of as beeing much easier to develop,
> for the users to get access to, scalable and that they have a greater
> compabillity -- "it must be a web app".

True, "easier to develop" by those who don't know better :-)

> With all these different issues you'll easily head wrong at some part of
the
> project.

Ohh that can happen with any application!

> I say either webapps have to get easier to build and use or we'd be better
> off going back to the fat client winforms "roots".

There *must* be some middle ground. Ignoring "web apps are easier to
develop" (they're not), the other issues have to be tackled which is access,
compatability and support costs (zero footprint).

When I first read about Java applets, I thought a solution was in the
offering. It still might be as opinion about the feasibility of large
complex web applications is questioned. The idea of walking up to any PC,
logging in as myself and small applets starting to download across the
Internet seems feasible to me. For example, a new PC has almost no software
installed. I hit the Word icon and enough Java code is downloaded to display
the toolbars etc. Start typing and the code to spell check is downloaded in
the background. Open a file and that's opened from the Internet and then
cached locally for speed.

The problem with my dream is that in practise is really hard to break down
that application yourself into Java applets. It would be far better if the
operating system/language did that behind the scenes - maybe the entire
application is 50MB big but the O/S doesn't load the whole lot - it just
pulls down the bits it needs over a slow link, maybe even as individual
methods are executed.

It feels like it could work...

It's not called Windows though!

Cheers, Rob.

Rob
Thu Jul 01 03:34:55 CDT 2004

> All requirements points towards a WinForms app, the users have .NET FW and
> WinXP, and with ClickOnce the major technical argument (deployment) for
> WebForms falls short.

What goes around, comes around. Heck - we run Citrix Terminal Services on
the desktop here which is a real bizarre way of tacking TCO and centralised
computer :-) At least if we have to install a patch, we only have to install
it one three "PCs" and it's instantly available to all 100 users.

Cheers, Rob

mortb
Thu Jul 01 09:52:20 CDT 2004


"Rob Nicholson" <rob.nicholson@NOSPAM_informed-direct.com> wrote in message
news:%23aiuDY0XEHA.996@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>
> There *must* be some middle ground. Ignoring "web apps are easier to
> develop" (they're not), the other issues have to be tackled which is
access,
> compatability and support costs (zero footprint).
>
> When I first read about Java applets, I thought a solution was in the
> offering. It still might be as opinion about the feasibility of large
> complex web applications is questioned. The idea of walking up to any PC,
> logging in as myself and small applets starting to download across the
> Internet seems feasible to me. For example, a new PC has almost no
software
> installed. I hit the Word icon and enough Java code is downloaded to
display
> the toolbars etc. Start typing and the code to spell check is downloaded
in
> the background. Open a file and that's opened from the Internet and then
> cached locally for speed.
>
> The problem with my dream is that in practise is really hard to break down
> that application yourself into Java applets. It would be far better if the
> operating system/language did that behind the scenes - maybe the entire
> application is 50MB big but the O/S doesn't load the whole lot - it just
> pulls down the bits it needs over a slow link, maybe even as individual
> methods are executed.
>

I've also felt this way about Java/applets since it came in the mid 90's.
Applets aren't happening because they have no real support from microsoft.
There is the .Net way and the J-way and they aren't completely compatible.
But applets are still written and maybe there will be a "silent revolution".

Windows has become the "mainframe phenomenon" of the decade -- too much time
and money spent developing for it so we can't quit using it.

I guess microsoft as well are waiting to see what's around the corner.
The bits and pieces for a new better concept for applications seems to be
there.
Someone just have to put them together good enough and get enough people
hooked.

/mortb

Martin
Fri Jul 02 01:27:28 CDT 2004

Perhaps WinForms + ClickOnce could be the low TCO solution in a not too
distant future given your requirements?

// Martin


"Rob Nicholson" <rob.nicholson@NOSPAM_informed-direct.com> wrote in message
news:OTl4MZ0XEHA.1684@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> > All requirements points towards a WinForms app, the users have .NET FW
and
> > WinXP, and with ClickOnce the major technical argument (deployment) for
> > WebForms falls short.
>
> What goes around, comes around. Heck - we run Citrix Terminal Services on
> the desktop here which is a real bizarre way of tacking TCO and
centralised
> computer :-) At least if we have to install a patch, we only have to
install
> it one three "PCs" and it's instantly available to all 100 users.
>
> Cheers, Rob
>
>

Rob
Fri Jul 02 10:12:01 CDT 2004

> I've also felt this way about Java/applets since it came in the mid 90's.
> Applets aren't happening because they have no real support from microsoft.
> There is the .Net way and the J-way and they aren't completely compatible.
> But applets are still written and maybe there will be a "silent
revolution".

Maybe, maybe :-)

> Windows has become the "mainframe phenomenon" of the decade -- too much
time
> and money spent developing for it so we can't quit using it.

A very difficult trap to climb out of.

> Someone just have to put them together good enough and get enough people
> hooked.

Ahh, easy to talk!

Cheers, Rob.

Rob
Fri Jul 02 10:12:35 CDT 2004

> Perhaps WinForms + ClickOnce could be the low TCO solution in a not too
> distant future given your requirements?

We can hope :-) .NET apps are easier to install anyway.

Cheers, Rob.