Hi
We have an MS-access databse, that holds all vital companyinfo and Know How.
Naturally, users must have access to the database during work, but we want
to protect the files from being copied to their laptops ( in case, they were
to leave the company).
We looked at Information Rights Management, but seems not to support Acces.
Any good Ideas ? Is this the right newsgroup to ask the question in ?

Environment
SBS2003 server, 2000 TerminalServer, XP Pro PC's, Office 2003

Re: Copy protection of files on Server by Roger

Roger
Mon Nov 07 15:33:56 CST 2005

If they need to and so can read the file, then they can make
a copy of it provided only that they have write access to
something.
About the only approach is to not expose the database to
direct access, but make users get at its content via a middle
tier application that alone needs/has direct access to the db file.

"Peter Hesselager" <PeterHesselager@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in
message news:EA501F9C-2218-4AE9-A131-BB3C42F0A358@microsoft.com...
> Hi
> We have an MS-access databse, that holds all vital companyinfo and Know
> How.
> Naturally, users must have access to the database during work, but we want
> to protect the files from being copied to their laptops ( in case, they
> were
> to leave the company).
> We looked at Information Rights Management, but seems not to support
> Acces.
> Any good Ideas ? Is this the right newsgroup to ask the question in ?
>
> Environment
> SBS2003 server, 2000 TerminalServer, XP Pro PC's, Office 2003
>



Re: Copy protection of files on Server by PeterHesselager

PeterHesselager
Mon Nov 07 16:28:04 CST 2005

Hi Roger
I agree - but I was wondering, if I in some way could apply a GPO, as all
users are logged onto the domain, and the Access-base is way too big for them
to mail ?
Terminal Server could be a possibility - but there are to many users, and it
would create to much "noise" among the users.



"Roger Abell [MVP]" wrote:

> If they need to and so can read the file, then they can make
> a copy of it provided only that they have write access to
> something.
> About the only approach is to not expose the database to
> direct access, but make users get at its content via a middle
> tier application that alone needs/has direct access to the db file.
>
> "Peter Hesselager" <PeterHesselager@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in
> message news:EA501F9C-2218-4AE9-A131-BB3C42F0A358@microsoft.com...
> > Hi
> > We have an MS-access databse, that holds all vital companyinfo and Know
> > How.
> > Naturally, users must have access to the database during work, but we want
> > to protect the files from being copied to their laptops ( in case, they
> > were
> > to leave the company).
> > We looked at Information Rights Management, but seems not to support
> > Acces.
> > Any good Ideas ? Is this the right newsgroup to ask the question in ?
> >
> > Environment
> > SBS2003 server, 2000 TerminalServer, XP Pro PC's, Office 2003
> >
>
>
>

Re: Copy protection of files on Server by Alun

Alun
Mon Nov 07 17:11:23 CST 2005

Peter Hesselager wrote:
> Hi Roger
> I agree - but I was wondering, if I in some way could apply a GPO, as all
> users are logged onto the domain, and the Access-base is way too big for
> them to mail ?

I'm not sure you really got the idea.

If they can read the database, they can copy it. It's rather like someone
saying "I'd like to protect this book, so that people can read it as much as
they like, but can't write down any information that is in it." The
difference between the two tasks is only the _writing_ part, which means
that the only place you could possibly apply such a protection is on the
_writing_ media - and I doubt that you're willing to turn the laptops into
read-only devices.

> Terminal Server could be a possibility - but there are to many users, and
> it would create to much "noise" among the users.

Obviously you need to increase the depth of the description, so that the
problem becomes tractable.

I'd suggest creating a web-based application that allows your users to do
restricted queries against the database, and ensure that the database
remains entirely at your main site. Of course, that's going to cause
problems if your users are mobile warriors and are separated from Internet
access at the sites where they need the information, in which case you will
simply have to decide how much information you will trust to send with them,
and how much you will hold back.

At the end of the day, you may find that this problem is best solved by the
human touch - hire people you can trust.

Always remember that the difference between "reading" and "copying" is in
the "writing", and so to prevent copying, the only answer is to prevent all
reading, or to prevent writing. The former is generally not what's wanted,
and the latter is generally not possible (especially if you are talking
about copying to media you do not control).

Alun.
~~~~
[Please don't email posters, if a Usenet response is appropriate.]
--
Texas Imperial Software | Find us at http://www.wftpd.com or email
23921 57th Ave SE | alun@wftpd.com.
Washington WA 98072-8661 | WFTPD, WFTPD Pro are Windows FTP servers.
Fax/Voice +1(425)807-1787 | Try our NEW client software, WFTPD Explorer.



Re: Copy protection of files on Server by PeterHesselager

PeterHesselager
Mon Nov 07 17:52:02 CST 2005

Hi again
First thank you for giving attention to the problem.
Oh yes, I did get the idea - but I need to solve my problem.
There was a management take over - and now not everybody is believed to stay
in the company - but "they" ( the new management) certainly don't want to
chase them out by means of suspicion -on the other hand if they ... you know !
--------
well
If it was an EXCELL, we could indeed use Information Rigts Management, which
would let users acces the spreadsheet, but restricting their use ( i.e
printing, copying, mailing, and more).
Unfortunately IRM - to my knowledge - does not apply to ACCESS databases.
The databse is the heart of production planning - and so does not have to
leave the plant ( The road warriors).
All Foremen / mid range leaders have Laptops to access company mail from
home / out in the world ( Software VPN-clients).
In the company they connect to the domain as regular PC's.
These Laptops are the problem, as they could copy to their local harddisk,
and then later burn a copy

If they were to use Terminal Services even when working on the plant, I as
the domain-administrator, could easily prevent users from copying to your
local computer.


So I figured - I'm not hardcore at all into Group Policy - but wouldn' it be
possible to set up som Policy, that rejects some specific filenames from
being copied onto their local discs ??
Yes, we don't want to make the Laptops "read only" !

Regarding your last statement - I believe, that I can control their disc in
this respect.
Don't I ??


Peter Hesselager


"Alun Jones" wrote:

> Peter Hesselager wrote:
> > Hi Roger
> > I agree - but I was wondering, if I in some way could apply a GPO, as all
> > users are logged onto the domain, and the Access-base is way too big for
> > them to mail ?
>
> I'm not sure you really got the idea.
>
> If they can read the database, they can copy it. It's rather like someone
> saying "I'd like to protect this book, so that people can read it as much as
> they like, but can't write down any information that is in it." The
> difference between the two tasks is only the _writing_ part, which means
> that the only place you could possibly apply such a protection is on the
> _writing_ media - and I doubt that you're willing to turn the laptops into
> read-only devices.
>
> > Terminal Server could be a possibility - but there are to many users, and
> > it would create to much "noise" among the users.
>
> Obviously you need to increase the depth of the description, so that the
> problem becomes tractable.
>
> I'd suggest creating a web-based application that allows your users to do
> restricted queries against the database, and ensure that the database
> remains entirely at your main site. Of course, that's going to cause
> problems if your users are mobile warriors and are separated from Internet
> access at the sites where they need the information, in which case you will
> simply have to decide how much information you will trust to send with them,
> and how much you will hold back.
>
> At the end of the day, you may find that this problem is best solved by the
> human touch - hire people you can trust.
>
> Always remember that the difference between "reading" and "copying" is in
> the "writing", and so to prevent copying, the only answer is to prevent all
> reading, or to prevent writing. The former is generally not what's wanted,
> and the latter is generally not possible (especially if you are talking
> about copying to media you do not control).
>
> Alun.
> ~~~~
> [Please don't email posters, if a Usenet response is appropriate.]
> --
> Texas Imperial Software | Find us at http://www.wftpd.com or email
> 23921 57th Ave SE | alun@wftpd.com.
> Washington WA 98072-8661 | WFTPD, WFTPD Pro are Windows FTP servers.
> Fax/Voice +1(425)807-1787 | Try our NEW client software, WFTPD Explorer.
>
>
>

Re: Copy protection of files on Server by Karl

Karl
Mon Nov 07 18:29:22 CST 2005


"Alun Jones" <alun@texis.invalid> wrote in message
news:VPqdneB2NLiGQvLeRVn-tg@comcast.com...

> If they can read the database, they can copy it.

Is there nothing that Microsoft's various DRM offerings can do to control
what can be done with the file? I thought that's what DRM was intended to
do.

Or could you not program an application interface, such as a web interface,
and force users to only manage the database via that interface? So that
they can modify the database but cannot take it with them?




Re: Copy protection of files on Server by Mark

Mark
Mon Nov 07 18:38:23 CST 2005

Your problem is unavoidable;

As suggested you can put a middle-man interface in, probably an ASP based
interface so they can only access restricted parts - but there would be
nothing to stop them just using those restricted queries to get every piece
of information associated with it. So if you have a restricted query that
brings back one user details, you simply run that query for every user and
copy the results.

Even for Access and IRM there is nothing to stop taking a screenshot and
using OCR to rip the data back, or even to copy it into a notepad or
unsecured medium. Secondly, there would be little to stop them from putting
in a external disk and copying it over, hell if they wanted to they could
fire up VBA and change its extension and send it out - You need to consider
that if they are deliberatly trying to steal the database that they have
access to - you have no way of particually stopping them..

- Keep your database back end seperate from the access portion of it.
- Ensure employees sign a NDA
- Educate the management that absolute digtal protection is not going to
happen

The last is probably the best thing.

--
- Mark Randall
http://zetech.swehli.com

"Those people that think they know everything are a great annoyance to those
of us who do"
Isaac Asimov

"Peter Hesselager" <PeterHesselager@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in
message news:E05E0DD3-9241-461F-89E8-AB66564A5CDB@microsoft.com...
> Hi again
> First thank you for giving attention to the problem.
> Oh yes, I did get the idea - but I need to solve my problem.
> There was a management take over - and now not everybody is believed to
> stay
> in the company - but "they" ( the new management) certainly don't want to
> chase them out by means of suspicion -on the other hand if they ... you
> know !
> --------
> well
> If it was an EXCELL, we could indeed use Information Rigts Management,
> which
> would let users acces the spreadsheet, but restricting their use ( i.e
> printing, copying, mailing, and more).
> Unfortunately IRM - to my knowledge - does not apply to ACCESS databases.
> The databse is the heart of production planning - and so does not have to
> leave the plant ( The road warriors).
> All Foremen / mid range leaders have Laptops to access company mail from
> home / out in the world ( Software VPN-clients).
> In the company they connect to the domain as regular PC's.
> These Laptops are the problem, as they could copy to their local harddisk,
> and then later burn a copy
>
> If they were to use Terminal Services even when working on the plant, I as
> the domain-administrator, could easily prevent users from copying to your
> local computer.
>
>
> So I figured - I'm not hardcore at all into Group Policy - but wouldn' it
> be
> possible to set up som Policy, that rejects some specific filenames from
> being copied onto their local discs ??
> Yes, we don't want to make the Laptops "read only" !
>
> Regarding your last statement - I believe, that I can control their disc
> in
> this respect.
> Don't I ??
>
>
> Peter Hesselager
>
>
> "Alun Jones" wrote:
>
>> Peter Hesselager wrote:
>> > Hi Roger
>> > I agree - but I was wondering, if I in some way could apply a GPO, as
>> > all
>> > users are logged onto the domain, and the Access-base is way too big
>> > for
>> > them to mail ?
>>
>> I'm not sure you really got the idea.
>>
>> If they can read the database, they can copy it. It's rather like
>> someone
>> saying "I'd like to protect this book, so that people can read it as much
>> as
>> they like, but can't write down any information that is in it." The
>> difference between the two tasks is only the _writing_ part, which means
>> that the only place you could possibly apply such a protection is on the
>> _writing_ media - and I doubt that you're willing to turn the laptops
>> into
>> read-only devices.
>>
>> > Terminal Server could be a possibility - but there are to many users,
>> > and
>> > it would create to much "noise" among the users.
>>
>> Obviously you need to increase the depth of the description, so that the
>> problem becomes tractable.
>>
>> I'd suggest creating a web-based application that allows your users to do
>> restricted queries against the database, and ensure that the database
>> remains entirely at your main site. Of course, that's going to cause
>> problems if your users are mobile warriors and are separated from
>> Internet
>> access at the sites where they need the information, in which case you
>> will
>> simply have to decide how much information you will trust to send with
>> them,
>> and how much you will hold back.
>>
>> At the end of the day, you may find that this problem is best solved by
>> the
>> human touch - hire people you can trust.
>>
>> Always remember that the difference between "reading" and "copying" is in
>> the "writing", and so to prevent copying, the only answer is to prevent
>> all
>> reading, or to prevent writing. The former is generally not what's
>> wanted,
>> and the latter is generally not possible (especially if you are talking
>> about copying to media you do not control).
>>
>> Alun.
>> ~~~~
>> [Please don't email posters, if a Usenet response is appropriate.]
>> --
>> Texas Imperial Software | Find us at http://www.wftpd.com or email
>> 23921 57th Ave SE | alun@wftpd.com.
>> Washington WA 98072-8661 | WFTPD, WFTPD Pro are Windows FTP servers.
>> Fax/Voice +1(425)807-1787 | Try our NEW client software, WFTPD Explorer.
>>
>>
>>



Re: Copy protection of files on Server by Phillip

Phillip
Tue Nov 08 08:46:14 CST 2005

"Peter Hesselager" <PeterHesselager@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in
message news:E05E0DD3-9241-461F-89E8-AB66564A5CDB@microsoft.com...
> Oh yes, I did get the idea - but I need to solve my problem.
> There was a management take over - and now not everybody is believed to
stay
> in the company - but "they" ( the new management) certainly don't want to
> chase them out by means of suspicion -on the other hand if they ... you
know !

Then the solution is to stop using Access. It has its usefull purposes, but
it is also the absolute most insecure form of a Database. To solve the
problem you have to convert to a server-based database like SQL Server,
MSDE, My SQL, or SQLAnywhere for example. There really is no other option,
and it they don't want to spend the money for any of those, then they are
saying that they don't want to solve the problem. Good technological
solutions cost money (in one form or another).

--
Phillip Windell [MCP, MVP, CCNA]
www.wandtv.com
-----------------------------------------------------
Understanding the ISA 2004 Access Rule Processing
http://www.isaserver.org/articles/ISA2004_AccessRules.html

Microsoft Internet Security & Acceleration Server: Guidance
http://www.microsoft.com/isaserver/techinfo/Guidance/2004.asp
http://www.microsoft.com/isaserver/techinfo/Guidance/2000.asp

Microsoft Internet Security & Acceleration Server: Partners
http://www.microsoft.com/isaserver/partners/default.asp
-----------------------------------------------------




Re: Copy protection of files on Server by PeterHesselager

PeterHesselager
Tue Nov 08 15:39:06 CST 2005

Hi
I have tried other threads in the meantime - including Microsoft here in
Denmark.
No good ideas have come up - regarding the use of Acces.
So Philipp - I think I'll go for your idea.

Actually we are running a SBS 2003 Premium, so SQL-server is right at hand.

Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with the SQL yet, so please forgive me yet
another question:
Now - we CAN protect data from abuse (as earlier discussed) in the SQL -
right ??
Can you provide me with a couple of good links to get started with the SQL
Server ??

So far thanks to everybody for joining in !

"Phillip Windell" wrote:

> "Peter Hesselager" <PeterHesselager@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in
> message news:E05E0DD3-9241-461F-89E8-AB66564A5CDB@microsoft.com...
> > Oh yes, I did get the idea - but I need to solve my problem.
> > There was a management take over - and now not everybody is believed to
> stay
> > in the company - but "they" ( the new management) certainly don't want to
> > chase them out by means of suspicion -on the other hand if they ... you
> know !
>
> Then the solution is to stop using Access. It has its usefull purposes, but
> it is also the absolute most insecure form of a Database. To solve the
> problem you have to convert to a server-based database like SQL Server,
> MSDE, My SQL, or SQLAnywhere for example. There really is no other option,
> and it they don't want to spend the money for any of those, then they are
> saying that they don't want to solve the problem. Good technological
> solutions cost money (in one form or another).
>
> --
> Phillip Windell [MCP, MVP, CCNA]
> www.wandtv.com
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Understanding the ISA 2004 Access Rule Processing
> http://www.isaserver.org/articles/ISA2004_AccessRules.html
>
> Microsoft Internet Security & Acceleration Server: Guidance
> http://www.microsoft.com/isaserver/techinfo/Guidance/2004.asp
> http://www.microsoft.com/isaserver/techinfo/Guidance/2000.asp
>
> Microsoft Internet Security & Acceleration Server: Partners
> http://www.microsoft.com/isaserver/partners/default.asp
> -----------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>

Re: Copy protection of files on Server by Phillip

Phillip
Tue Nov 08 16:53:57 CST 2005

"Peter Hesselager" <PeterHesselager@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in
message news:DFA5E04E-FB6C-4181-BC65-F6BC3E6403A9@microsoft.com...
> I have tried other threads in the meantime - including Microsoft here in
> Denmark.
> No good ideas have come up - regarding the use of Acces.
> So Philipp - I think I'll go for your idea.
> Actually we are running a SBS 2003 Premium, so SQL-server is right at
hand.

Tha is excellent...

> Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with the SQL yet, so please forgive me yet
> another question:
> Now - we CAN protect data from abuse (as earlier discussed) in the SQL -
> right ??
> Can you provide me with a couple of good links to get started with the
SQL
> Server ??

I'm not an "SQL Server Guy" but a DB in SQL Server can be protected by its
own native security (has its own user accounts), and it can also use Local
Windows Accounts or Domain Level Accounts,...or it can do either & both at
the same time. However I don't think it has its own ready-made GUI for the
users to work with the DB as Access does. But I think there are ways to use
the Access "front end" to work with the SQL "back end".

But you need to ask people who know what they are talking about with SQL
Server,...if I say much more about it I will be swimming in the deep water
and may drown.

--
Phillip Windell [MCP, MVP, CCNA]
www.wandtv.com
-----------------------------------------------------
Understanding the ISA 2004 Access Rule Processing
http://www.isaserver.org/articles/ISA2004_AccessRules.html

Microsoft Internet Security & Acceleration Server: Guidance
http://www.microsoft.com/isaserver/techinfo/Guidance/2004.asp
http://www.microsoft.com/isaserver/techinfo/Guidance/2000.asp

Microsoft Internet Security & Acceleration Server: Partners
http://www.microsoft.com/isaserver/partners/default.asp
-----------------------------------------------------




Re: Copy protection of files on Server by Karl

Karl
Tue Nov 08 21:10:46 CST 2005


"Phillip Windell" <@.> wrote in message
news:OWUoOdL5FHA.3496@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

> I'm not an "SQL Server Guy" but a DB in SQL Server can be protected by its
> own native security (has its own user accounts), and it can also use Local
> Windows Accounts or Domain Level Accounts,...or it can do either & both at
> the same time. However I don't think it has its own ready-made GUI for
the
> users to work with the DB as Access does. But I think there are ways to
use
> the Access "front end" to work with the SQL "back end".
>
> But you need to ask people who know what they are talking about with SQL
> Server,...if I say much more about it I will be swimming in the deep water
> and may drown.

In this case, Access with a web page front end will defeat copying every bit
as well as SQL with a web front end, and you don't have to buy or support an
expensive SQL server or convert the database. The web code is virtually
identical whichever one you use.

I also still believe Microsoft DRM can be used as well to control where the
database can be used and what can be done with it.



Re: Copy protection of files on Server by Roger

Roger
Sun Nov 13 10:12:19 CST 2005

Peter,

If you look into the SQL/Access upsizing wizard (I assume there is still
one for recent versions of Access) then what you can end up with is
the data in SQL Server database, and the application in Access that
people are used to using working against the SQL Server database
as a linked database. No real change in the peoples' way of doing
things, but the data is no longer in a walking mdb.

However, as was noted this thread, even with a middle tier, or the
Access linked database use of an SQL Server database, if they can
read the data and are determined, then they can steal the data.
You may need to train the video monitoring system to look for
people that do three hours worth of prinnt-screens.
"Peter Hesselager" <PeterHesselager@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in
message news:DFA5E04E-FB6C-4181-BC65-F6BC3E6403A9@microsoft.com...
> Hi
> I have tried other threads in the meantime - including Microsoft here in
> Denmark.
> No good ideas have come up - regarding the use of Acces.
> So Philipp - I think I'll go for your idea.
>
> Actually we are running a SBS 2003 Premium, so SQL-server is right at
> hand.
>
> Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with the SQL yet, so please forgive me yet
> another question:
> Now - we CAN protect data from abuse (as earlier discussed) in the SQL -
> right ??
> Can you provide me with a couple of good links to get started with the
> SQL
> Server ??
>
> So far thanks to everybody for joining in !
>
> "Phillip Windell" wrote:
>
>> "Peter Hesselager" <PeterHesselager@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in
>> message news:E05E0DD3-9241-461F-89E8-AB66564A5CDB@microsoft.com...
>> > Oh yes, I did get the idea - but I need to solve my problem.
>> > There was a management take over - and now not everybody is believed to
>> stay
>> > in the company - but "they" ( the new management) certainly don't want
>> > to
>> > chase them out by means of suspicion -on the other hand if they ... you
>> know !
>>
>> Then the solution is to stop using Access. It has its usefull purposes,
>> but
>> it is also the absolute most insecure form of a Database. To solve the
>> problem you have to convert to a server-based database like SQL Server,
>> MSDE, My SQL, or SQLAnywhere for example. There really is no other
>> option,
>> and it they don't want to spend the money for any of those, then they are
>> saying that they don't want to solve the problem. Good technological
>> solutions cost money (in one form or another).
>>
>> --
>> Phillip Windell [MCP, MVP, CCNA]
>> www.wandtv.com
>> -----------------------------------------------------
>> Understanding the ISA 2004 Access Rule Processing
>> http://www.isaserver.org/articles/ISA2004_AccessRules.html
>>
>> Microsoft Internet Security & Acceleration Server: Guidance
>> http://www.microsoft.com/isaserver/techinfo/Guidance/2004.asp
>> http://www.microsoft.com/isaserver/techinfo/Guidance/2000.asp
>>
>> Microsoft Internet Security & Acceleration Server: Partners
>> http://www.microsoft.com/isaserver/partners/default.asp
>> -----------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>