Calculations not making sense

I am running into the usual problem I have with Project in that it
works fine until I start trying to work with resources and it
immediately starts doing stuff I can't explain.


Problem:
I have a Fixed Duration Task with 1 resource at 100% on this task.
The task has a 4 hour duration, which also is the amount of work.
There is a total of 7 of this resource.

All my tasks are fixed duration with the assumption being made that the
contractor will add additional resources if needed.

I am also trying to work with the assumption that a resource will work
on a task until completed.

So if I assign the resource at 100% on this task the resource should be
assigned at 4 hours, right?
4 hour work * 1 unit = 4h duration.

Why then does my duration change to 13.7? If I change my duration back
to 4 hours, Project reduces my resource time to 0 hours.

I have never been able to overcome this problem with Project. It's one
of the reasons many people prefer Primavera or other tools. Primavera
is pricey, but I can at least explain what it's doing when it levels
resources and does the calculations.

Project seems to throw in a bunch of extra calculations but doesn't
explain what they are.

snetzky
Fri Oct 07 08:02:05 CDT 2005

Is part of the problem that I'm expecting Project to treat each task as
a discreet entity until such time as I level?

When doing the calculation of W*U=D what other factors does Project
take into account?

I have all my scheduling and leveling settings to manual, by the way.

snetzky
Fri Oct 07 08:33:46 CDT 2005

Just realized I had the formula wrong, its W/U =D but that still
doesn't explain why I'm getting the results I'm getting.

Larry

Jan
Fri Oct 07 08:29:07 CDT 2005

Hi,

The formula is W=D*U
I have never seen anything like what you are experiencing.
I try to imagine calendar issues, several resoruces with differnet
alendars...
I'm sur you inroducesd solme curious data because with Fixed duration
normlly this can't happen.
You canb send me the file if you wish.
My address is on my website.
Greetings,

--
Jan De Messemaeker
Microsoft Project Most Valuable Professional
http://users.online.be/prom-ade/
+32-495-300 620
"snetzky" <snetzky@yahoo.com> schreef in bericht
news:1128690125.165272.98050@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Is part of the problem that I'm expecting Project to treat each task as
> a discreet entity until such time as I level?
>
> When doing the calculation of W*U=D what other factors does Project
> take into account?
>
> I have all my scheduling and leveling settings to manual, by the way.
>

snetzky
Fri Oct 07 09:04:49 CDT 2005

okay..but if Microsoft uses the same math as everyone else:
(dredging up my highschool algebra)
W=D*U
D=W/U
U=W/D

20 hours work=20 hours duration * 1 resource
20 hours duration=20 hours work / 1 resource
1 Resource=20 hours work/20 hours duration

Admittedly with multiple resources it gets more complicated, but there
has to be some other factor that I'm not considering

Jan
Fri Oct 07 09:07:46 CDT 2005

Hi again,

With multiple resource you can get about any result depending on your data.
Individual asignments are scheduled individually D=W/U doesn't necessarily
hold true on task level.
There are so many combinations that I have to look at the file to propose a
diagnostic.
But be assured, it is your input that provides the result...

HTH
--
Jan De Messemaeker
Microsoft Project Most Valuable Professional
http://users.online.be/prom-ade/
+32-495-300 620
"snetzky" <snetzky@yahoo.com> schreef in bericht
news:1128693889.781325.212630@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> okay..but if Microsoft uses the same math as everyone else:
> (dredging up my highschool algebra)
> W=D*U
> D=W/U
> U=W/D
>
> 20 hours work=20 hours duration * 1 resource
> 20 hours duration=20 hours work / 1 resource
> 1 Resource=20 hours work/20 hours duration
>
> Admittedly with multiple resources it gets more complicated, but there
> has to be some other factor that I'm not considering
>

Gary
Fri Oct 07 09:25:32 CDT 2005

I'm not sure what you mean by "There is a total of 7 of this resource" in
the context of the behavior you're trying to describe. Rest assured that
there is an explanation for this. When I setup a task as four hours, fixed
duration, and apply a resource with four hours of availability on the day
the task is scheduled for, the duration stays as defined. What are you doing
differently?

--


Gary L. Chefetz, MVP
"We wrote the books on Project Server"
http://www.msprojectexperts.com

For Project Server FAQs visit
http://www.projectserverexperts.com

For Project FAQs visit
http://www.mvps.org/project


"snetzky" <snetzky@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1128689543.314741.240500@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>I am running into the usual problem I have with Project in that it
> works fine until I start trying to work with resources and it
> immediately starts doing stuff I can't explain.
>
>
> Problem:
> I have a Fixed Duration Task with 1 resource at 100% on this task.
> The task has a 4 hour duration, which also is the amount of work.
> There is a total of 7 of this resource.
>
> All my tasks are fixed duration with the assumption being made that the
> contractor will add additional resources if needed.
>
> I am also trying to work with the assumption that a resource will work
> on a task until completed.
>
> So if I assign the resource at 100% on this task the resource should be
> assigned at 4 hours, right?
> 4 hour work * 1 unit = 4h duration.
>
> Why then does my duration change to 13.7? If I change my duration back
> to 4 hours, Project reduces my resource time to 0 hours.
>
> I have never been able to overcome this problem with Project. It's one
> of the reasons many people prefer Primavera or other tools. Primavera
> is pricey, but I can at least explain what it's doing when it levels
> resources and does the calculations.
>
> Project seems to throw in a bunch of extra calculations but doesn't
> explain what they are.
>

snetzky
Fri Oct 07 09:57:00 CDT 2005

Any recommendations on how to avoid problems with assigning resources
or common gotchas?
I've read Gary's excellent Project tutorial, but something must not
have took.

Larry

Jan
Fri Oct 07 11:24:30 CDT 2005

Hi,

When you assign only one resource to a task, with a "normal" calendar there
are no Gotchas, everything is as described W=DU.
I still offer to look at your file..

--
Jan De Messemaeker
Microsoft Project Most Valuable Professional
http://users.online.be/prom-ade/
+32-495-300 620
"snetzky" <snetzky@yahoo.com> schreef in bericht
news:1128697020.077414.38540@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Any recommendations on how to avoid problems with assigning resources
> or common gotchas?
> I've read Gary's excellent Project tutorial, but something must not
> have took.
>
> Larry
>

snetzky
Fri Oct 07 13:57:52 CDT 2005

I appreciate the feedback and help. I'll probably shoot you a copy
after work today, Part of the problem may be that I'm not running a
normal calendar and Project may be trying to compensate somehow in a
way that I'm not catching.

In the meantime, I've changed all of my resources to be either on a 12
hour day or 12 hour night shift. Do I need to tell my tasks to use one
or the other, or can I leave them on a 24 hour schedule?

Larry

snetzky
Fri Oct 07 13:57:56 CDT 2005

I appreciate the feedback and help. I'll probably shoot you a copy
after work today, Part of the problem may be that I'm not running a
normal calendar and Project may be trying to compensate somehow in a
way that I'm not catching.

In the meantime, I've changed all of my resources to be either on a 12
hour day or 12 hour night shift. Do I need to tell my tasks to use one
or the other, or can I leave them on a 24 hour schedule?

Larry

Jan
Sat Oct 08 03:08:18 CDT 2005

Hi Larry,

When there is a resource calendar and no task calendar, teh task's work is
planned using the resouce calendar.
When there are both a resource calendar and a task calendar, work is
scheduled when BOTH show working time
HTH

--
Jan De Messemaeker
Microsoft Project Most Valuable Professional
http://users.online.be/prom-ade/
+32-495-300 620
"snetzky" <snetzky@yahoo.com> schreef in bericht
news:1128711476.199938.286950@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> I appreciate the feedback and help. I'll probably shoot you a copy
> after work today, Part of the problem may be that I'm not running a
> normal calendar and Project may be trying to compensate somehow in a
> way that I'm not catching.
>
> In the meantime, I've changed all of my resources to be either on a 12
> hour day or 12 hour night shift. Do I need to tell my tasks to use one
> or the other, or can I leave them on a 24 hour schedule?
>
> Larry
>

Steve
Sun Oct 09 06:38:07 CDT 2005

There are a bunch of things to keep in mind.
1: Durations are always calculated and stored in minutes. The Calendar
Options "hours per day" entry sets the conversion between the actual minutes
of duration and the number of "days" displayed. So if a task is done by one
resource on each of three shifts so it starts Monday at 8am, is worked on
continuously for 3 shifts, and ends Tuesday at 8am, and the "hours per day"
setting is the default 8 hours, that task is taking place over 24 working
time hours and will display its duration as "3 days."
2: Duration is the number of working time minutes, that is, minutes of the
day when work could legally be scheduled, between when the task begins and
when it ends, regardless of whether work actually will take place during
each minute. When you have more than one resource on the task, the duration
is the time between the earliest starting resource begins and the latest
finishing resource ends. Try this experiment with all settings and calendars
on the out-of-box defaults. Create a 1 day duration task X and 2 resources,
Joe and Bill, with the project starting on a Monday. Assign both resources
to the task. Duration 1 day. Make Monday a non-working day for Bill.
Duration changes to 2 days, task starts Mon 8am and ends Tue at 5pm,
reflecting Joe does his half on Monday and Bill does his on Tuesday. Make
Tues and Wed also non-working days for Bill. Task now starts Mon at 8am and
ends Thur at 5pm but the duration is STILL 2 days because on the calendar
governing Bill's part of the work, those days are not potential working time
and so don't count towards the duration value. Now try it again but instead
of adding non-working days to Bill's calendar, after you add Joe and Bill to
the 1 day task, change Bill's work shift to be swing shift with working
hours of 15:00-19:00 and 20:00-00:00. Now the task begins Mon 8am and ends
Mon at midnight. Now the duration shows 1.75 days, reflecting that the 2
days of total work, 1 day for each resource, overlap (The fact that several
minutes of work might be getting done during each minute on the clock during
the overlap doesn't matter - a working time minute is 1 duration minute
regardless of how many resources are on the job during it.)
3: You absolutly need to group your resources by shift. If I have 3 guys
covering 3 shifts, that should be listed as 3 entries "DayShiftWorker -
100%", "SwingShiftWorker - Max 100%", and "GraveyardWorker - Max 100%" each
with the appropriate resource calendar describing his shift hours and NOT
"Workers - 300%" with a 24-hour calendar. The latter way means that there
are three workers who work together the same hours, a task can use 1 2 or
all 3 of them, their working hours are 24/7 so each of them individually
never takes a day off, never has a lunch break, etc and so even if I only
assign 1 of them, once work on a task begins it will proceed without
interuption until it ends, no matter how long it takes. If Joe is one of
the group and I assign him to a 2 week task, he works without even a single
minute off and doesn't see the light of day or get even the shortest rest
break for 2 solid weeks. (This is why I'm so opposed to using the 24 hour
calendar as the project calendar or for any resources except automated
machinery that really does work like that - humans always get time off and
the calendars that control tasks should always reflect that reality - the 24
hour calendar doesn't allow any time off at all.)
--
Steve House [MVP]
MS Project Trainer & Consultant
Visit http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm for the FAQs




"snetzky" <snetzky@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1128711476.199938.286950@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>I appreciate the feedback and help. I'll probably shoot you a copy
> after work today, Part of the problem may be that I'm not running a
> normal calendar and Project may be trying to compensate somehow in a
> way that I'm not catching.
>
> In the meantime, I've changed all of my resources to be either on a 12
> hour day or 12 hour night shift. Do I need to tell my tasks to use one
> or the other, or can I leave them on a 24 hour schedule?
>
> Larry
>

snetzky
Mon Oct 10 09:08:13 CDT 2005

So how do I set a project schedule that reflects that work will be done
in 2 12 hour shifts? Set up a 2 shift schedule taking the breaks of
the two individual 12 hour shifts into account?

For example, my shifts run:

Day Shift
6A-11:30A
12P-6P

Night Shift
6P-11:30P
12A - 6A

so then should my "24 hour" schedule be entered as
12P -11:30P
12 A to 11:30 A

or
6A - 11:30 A
12P - 6P
6P-11:30 P
12 A - 6 A

Or is there another option I'm not thinking about?

thanks for all of your help by the way. Resource leveling is the one
thing that I've never been able to make work in Project. Getting this
figured out will be a definite breakthrough.

Larry

Steve
Wed Oct 12 14:40:30 CDT 2005

Pretty close. The calendar shows the hours of work that takes place on a
given workday. You need to have 2 calendars, one for day shift and the
other for night shift. Your day-shift calendar would show 6am-11:30am and
12pm-6pm as you said. The calendar for your night shift is a little more
complicated because a given day of the week will show the MORNING hours for
the shift that began the night before, then the EVENING hours for the shift
that begins that evening. If you have a crew coming in on Monday night at
6pm for the first shift of the week with no one coming to work Sat or Sun
evening, The hours of work on Mon would be 6pm-12am only. Then Tue, Wed
Thur and FRi would show 2 time blocks, 12am-6am and 6pm-12am in that order.
Sat would show one time block only, 12am-6am. (In a 12 hour shift you only
allow your crew 1 30-minute meal period ?!?!?!?! - no offense intended, but
that's positively medieval and is bound to be negatively impacting your
productivity! Give 'em 2 30-minute or 1 60-minute (the two meal breaks
preferrably) and I'll bet your increased productivity will more than offset
the time costs.) Pick whichever of those two calendars descibes the work
pattern of the majority of the tasks and make it your project calendar.
Remember that the project calendar defines the schedule of tasks when they
have not yet had resources assigned or otherwise aren't governed by a
resource calendar. Since tasks only take place when people are there to
work on them and tasks should represent work broken down the the individual
resource or resource team level, I like to see the project calendar describe
the work or a "generic" resource.

If you use the 24 hour calendar and say a task has a duration of 36 hours,
that means it will proceed straight for 36 hours. If it starts Monday at
6am, it ends Tuesday at 6pm. But that's not usually the case - when you
assign that task to a day-shift resource it will start Mon 6am and go for 12
hours. Then he goes home and the task stands down, no work is done on it
until he comes back on Tue. Then he'll work on it 12 hours Tue and again it
stands down overnight. Then he comes in Wed and works 12 hours and it
finally finishes up Wed at 6pm. The reason I like to see perhaps the day
shift calendar as the project calendar is that if I put a task in that has
36 hours duration, I want to see the same work pattern BEFORE and AFTER I
assign the resource - I DON'T want to see the finish initially sitting Tue
at 6pm before I assign the resource and then have it jump to Wed at 6pm
after - I want to see the same hours before and after. Now if I initially
put it in and shows day-shift hours starting Mon 6am and finishing Wed at
6pm but then I assign it to a night shift resource, it'll jump to start Mon
at 6pm and end Thur at 6am but the cumulative effect of that sort of change
won't affect the total elapsed time of the project by a signifigant amount
while the other way, using the 24 hour calendar as the project calendar, can
lead to a dramatic difference in the total elapsed time in the project
schedule between before resources are assigned versus after.

HTH]

--
Steve House [MVP]
MS Project Trainer & Consultant
Visit http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm for the FAQs

"snetzky" <snetzky@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1128953293.677508.96520@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> So how do I set a project schedule that reflects that work will be done
> in 2 12 hour shifts? Set up a 2 shift schedule taking the breaks of
> the two individual 12 hour shifts into account?
>
> For example, my shifts run:
>
> Day Shift
> 6A-11:30A
> 12P-6P
>
> Night Shift
> 6P-11:30P
> 12A - 6A
>
> so then should my "24 hour" schedule be entered as
> 12P -11:30P
> 12 A to 11:30 A
>
> or
> 6A - 11:30 A
> 12P - 6P
> 6P-11:30 P
> 12 A - 6 A
>
> Or is there another option I'm not thinking about?
>
> thanks for all of your help by the way. Resource leveling is the one
> thing that I've never been able to make work in Project. Getting this
> figured out will be a definite breakthrough.
>
> Larry
>

snetzky
Thu Oct 13 09:26:02 CDT 2005

The working schedule isn't my choice, but there are a couple of 15
minute breaks in there too, I just didn't put them in.

The schedule is 24 hours 7 days a week, so I think I'm okay on that
point. The other question I have is that if a task is going to
continue with the night shift taking over where the day shift left off
or vice versa, do I assign both a day and night shift resource to the
task and figure that Project will figure out where to assign the
resources?

Most of the tasks I'm working with won't benefit from additional
resources being added (1 crew is about all that can work on a task at
one time).

Thanks again for all of your help. I think the calendars is the
majority of the problems I'm having.

Larry

Steve
Thu Oct 13 14:17:46 CDT 2005

Before you commit yourself to using the 24/7 calendar as the project
calendar think it through a bit to make sure it really should apply in your
case. The project calendar is not the overall hours of business of your
firm or organization. Rather, it's the hours of the day when typical tasks
TAKEN AS DISCRETE BLOCKS OF WORK are likely to be or will need to be
scheduled. If my typical task is something where one crew works on it
during the day and another crew takes over for the night shift, the task
running continuously day and night with different crews alternating on each
shift until it is done, then the 24/7 calendar may indeed be appropriate.
But if the task might be assigned to a day shift resource OR might be
assigned to a night shift resource but will only be worked on by that one
resource or crew from its start until its finish, work being interrupted
during the resource's off-duty hours, then whichever way work is assigned it
will only take place 12 hours a day and the 24 hour calendar will NOT be an
accurate description of the way work will actually proceed.

I don't know where you're located but I'm surprised your company can get
away with that break pattern. Where I last had to look into it, admittedly
quite a fair number of years ago so the laws may have changed since then,
the statutory minimums were that in an 8-hour day, workers were required to
get at least a30-minute unpaid lunch and 2 10-minute paid breaks (10 was the
minimum required by law, most firms did 15). Over 8 and up to 10
consecutive hours added a 3rd 10-minute paid break while over 10 and up to
12 mandated the extra 10-minute break be changed into a 30-minute PAID meal
break. If the day ran over 8 hours but less than 10, all hours over 8 were
at time-and-a-half. Over 10 but under 12, all hours over 8 went to double
time. Over 12 consecutive working hours were absolutely prohibited under any
circumstances except for public safety and emergency workers such as police
and fire and there was an absolute minimum of 8 off hours between any two
consecutive work periods (which sometimes made for some interesting days off
juggling for workers who moved from one shift to another). Workers could
not be scheduled for more than I think it was 6 working days in succession
and there had to be at least 1 day off before starting the next work week.
Only under very unusual circumstances could a worker be scheduled for more
than 44 hours astheir normal work week and mandatory overtime kicked in at
44 hours regardless of how long each workday was.
--
Steve House [MVP]
MS Project Trainer & Consultant
Visit http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm for the FAQs


"snetzky" <snetzky@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1129213562.758199.241360@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> The working schedule isn't my choice, but there are a couple of 15
> minute breaks in there too, I just didn't put them in.
>
> The schedule is 24 hours 7 days a week, so I think I'm okay on that
> point. The other question I have is that if a task is going to
> continue with the night shift taking over where the day shift left off
> or vice versa, do I assign both a day and night shift resource to the
> task and figure that Project will figure out where to assign the
> resources?
>
> Most of the tasks I'm working with won't benefit from additional
> resources being added (1 crew is about all that can work on a task at
> one time).
>
> Thanks again for all of your help. I think the calendars is the
> majority of the problems I'm having.
>
> Larry
>

snetzky
Thu Oct 13 15:05:49 CDT 2005

I think the 24 hour schedule is on target then, as most of my tasks
will be worked until they are done. To show that, do I need to assign
both a day and night crew to the task and let Project figure out how to
allocate it?

I think the discussion of working hours and breaks is probably OT at
this point, as I have no power to change it, since I was hired as a
scheduler rather than as a project manager.

The main thing I need to figure out is how to get Project to tell me
whether or not I have enough people to get the work done in the three
weeks I have to get it done.

Larry

Steve
Fri Oct 14 05:13:39 CDT 2005

LOL - the break discussion is more academic rambling than anything else, I
admit. I find there's a regressive tendency generally in businesses today,
many of them rolling their practices and policies back to those of the bad
old days. I think that is going to ultimately prove to be a case of it
shortsightedly shooting itself in the foot in the long run and I have a
tendency to philosophize against it when the opportunity arises. Didn't
mean to drift too far off topic.

I'm not sure what you mean by "let Poject figure out how to allocate it."
Project never figures out allocations, that's up to you. It's role there is
to show you the results of varous experiments you might try with different
allocations, a calculator for you to use in a what-if set of trials. to see
what allocation will best achieve your goals. "Resource" is a project plan
is a skill set as well as an individual. A "Task" is a specific observable
and measureable activity done by a resource. The tasks need to broken down
and detailed to the level of describing the work done by the individual
resources viewed as skill sets. If your task is something that involves,
lets say, engineers, plumbers, accountants, carpenters and nurses, those
wildly different skills means there's a good chance the task needs to be
further broken down into the specific activity done by each. In your
resources you wouldn't have one big group - you'd either have individuals
listed by name or grouped together into groups with the same skills, the
maximum allocation indicating the number of individuals in each group - so
Engineers (500%) would be one group consisting of 5 engineers whom you've
elected not to detail out by individual name. Where's this going? When you
set up your resource for your project, you should have resources listed
either by indivudal worker's name OR by skill group. Further, since you're
in a multi-shift environment, you need to indicate WHO is on WHAT shift - so
you'll have perhaps a group "DayShiftWelders (500%)" and another
"NightShiftWelders (700%)" indicating 5 welders working days and 7 welders
working nights. Each group has a resource calendar asociated with it that
descibes its hours of work. You have a task, say "Weld 100 girders to
footplates," that can start Mon 8am and you expect it will require 350
man-hours of work to complete. Now you can assign 2 days shift and 3 night
shift or 3 day shift and 5 night shift or all the dayshift and none of the
night shift or .... and in each case Project can tell you when the task will
likely finish. But it's always up to you to tell project how many people to
put on in what shift, it won't figure it out for you. You try one
allocation experiment and if it works to meet your goals, fine. If it
doesn't, you try a different allocation until you come up with one that
works.
--
Steve House [MVP]
MS Project Trainer & Consultant
Visit http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm for the FAQs



"snetzky" <snetzky@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1129233949.925156.322900@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>I think the 24 hour schedule is on target then, as most of my tasks
> will be worked until they are done. To show that, do I need to assign
> both a day and night crew to the task and let Project figure out how to
> allocate it?
>
> I think the discussion of working hours and breaks is probably OT at
> this point, as I have no power to change it, since I was hired as a
> scheduler rather than as a project manager.
>
> The main thing I need to figure out is how to get Project to tell me
> whether or not I have enough people to get the work done in the three
> weeks I have to get it done.
>
> Larry
>

snetzky
Fri Oct 14 07:32:30 CDT 2005

I'm in agreement about the regressive thing, but I gotta make a living.
<grin>

Bottom line is, I don't have time to do this at the granularity you
suggest, nor do I see it as being particularly useful, given the
structure of the project. As the majority of the tasks don't fit into
a particular task network, they just have to be done sometime between
the start and end of the project, I'm inclined to identify priorities,
which cranes (probably the most critical resource) are needed, and then
let the supervisors on the floor figure out the people resources and
which jobs to work on. The biggest thing here is whether or not they
are getting all of the work done and can finish it all by the deadline.

I have to admit, Project was not my first choice, and this experience
hasn't changed my mind any.

Larry

snetzky
Fri Oct 14 07:32:35 CDT 2005

I'm in agreement about the regressive thing, but I gotta make a living.
<grin>

Bottom line is, I don't have time to do this at the granularity you
suggest, nor do I see it as being particularly useful, given the
structure of the project. As the majority of the tasks don't fit into
a particular task network, they just have to be done sometime between
the start and end of the project, I'm inclined to identify priorities,
which cranes (probably the most critical resource) are needed, and then
let the supervisors on the floor figure out the people resources and
which jobs to work on. The biggest thing here is whether or not they
are getting all of the work done and can finish it all by the deadline.

I have to admit, Project was not my first choice, and this experience
hasn't changed my mind any.

Larry

Steve
Sat Oct 15 04:43:12 CDT 2005

Well, you do need to remember that first and foremost Project is a schedule
development and work management tool, not a resource management tool. Its
function is so that you can go to that floor supervisor and tell him that
Monday night he needs to put a crew of 5 on using those cranes to position
the girders (or whatever) so they'll be ready for the wleders to secure
during the day shift on Tuesday. You don't need to try to tell him which of
his crew to use for the job and for that matter you've probably already
consulted with him as to how many men he thinks it will take to do the job
in the time required, but you do need to be task granular enough to be able
to tell him that the girders will need to be moved Monday night so they'll
be properly positioned to be welded in place on Tuesday. After all, how can
you identify and schedule resources if you haven't detailed out the tasks to
the point that you know exactly what needs to be done and what resources
have the capabilities of doing them? Without that level of detail, there's
nothing to schedule.

Just curious, what was your first choice? AFAIK, Project is no different
from any other PM software in the respect of fundamentaly being a critical
path task scheduling tool.
--
Steve House [MVP]
MS Project Trainer & Consultant
Visit http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm for the FAQs


"snetzky" <snetzky@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1129293150.091311.80810@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> I'm in agreement about the regressive thing, but I gotta make a living.
> <grin>
>
> Bottom line is, I don't have time to do this at the granularity you
> suggest, nor do I see it as being particularly useful, given the
> structure of the project. As the majority of the tasks don't fit into
> a particular task network, they just have to be done sometime between
> the start and end of the project, I'm inclined to identify priorities,
> which cranes (probably the most critical resource) are needed, and then
> let the supervisors on the floor figure out the people resources and
> which jobs to work on. The biggest thing here is whether or not they
> are getting all of the work done and can finish it all by the deadline.
>
> I have to admit, Project was not my first choice, and this experience
> hasn't changed my mind any.
>
> Larry
>

snetzky
Sat Oct 15 10:43:16 CDT 2005

In a perfect world, that's the way I would have done it. But having to
eat what was put on my plate, I approached it differently. The good
thing was that the parts of the project that had dependencies (other
than start and end of the project) had dedicated resources and were
already planned. My issue was to schedule the remaining work and make
sure that something didn't get missed.

The limiting resource in this case was cranes, so that's what I focused
on in trying to figure out the actual framework for the schedule and
I'll level resources on a shift by shift level.

My first preference in Project management tools is either P3 or
Suretrak from Primavera.

I've used both and while not as user friendly as Project, they both
turn out consistently explainable schedules even after leveling
resources.

Larry

Steve
Sat Oct 15 17:01:50 CDT 2005

Even if the limiting resource was cranes (or other machinery) and not people
I don't see how you could schedule them without detailing the specific tasks
that utilize them. But it is tricky to know how granular to make the WBS,
that's a fact. I try to relate it to the idea of a task being a continuous
block of work performed by a resource, even if it involves several discrete
steps. The example I use in my classes is painting the classroom - we need
to move out the computers, move out the desks, remove fixtures from the
wall, blend the colour, apply the paint, and move everything back in. If
the painter and his assistant will do it all, I'd just put in one task
"paint the room," let him figure out the details of when he does what part,
and be done with it. That's one resource doing one discrete thing that
involves several steps. But if we need to schedule people from IT to
disconnect the computers and a team of labourers to take out the furnishings
and union regs require it be a carpenter who takes down the wall fixtures
and a colour psychologist will come in to blend the perfect paint shade and
then the painter comes in to apply it, all of those individual tasks must be
detailed out under a "paint the room" summary task because we have several
resources each doing their own unique set of activities that all need to be
coordinated with each other.

--
Steve House [MVP]
MS Project Trainer & Consultant
Visit http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm for the FAQs

"snetzky" <snetzky@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1129390995.985767.81560@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> In a perfect world, that's the way I would have done it. But having to
> eat what was put on my plate, I approached it differently. The good
> thing was that the parts of the project that had dependencies (other
> than start and end of the project) had dedicated resources and were
> already planned. My issue was to schedule the remaining work and make
> sure that something didn't get missed.
>
> The limiting resource in this case was cranes, so that's what I focused
> on in trying to figure out the actual framework for the schedule and
> I'll level resources on a shift by shift level.
>
> My first preference in Project management tools is either P3 or
> Suretrak from Primavera.
>
> I've used both and while not as user friendly as Project, they both
> turn out consistently explainable schedules even after leveling
> resources.
>
> Larry
>

snetzky
Mon Oct 17 08:46:42 CDT 2005

I understand how it's "supposed" to be done, but I didn't have that
option. In a perfect world, I would have done all of the things you
suggest. However, turnarounds are not software projects, and have
entirely different issues. What I find interesting is that on other
project management/scheduling/planning sites where I've discussed this,
the prevailing opinion has been that Project is not the right tool for
turnarounds because it doesn't do a good job of scheduling resources
over differing shifts, etc. This has borne out time and time again.

Frankly, I've never been able to get Project to make any kind of sense
when running a schedule for any kind of project once I started adding
resources, and I wouldn't have used it for this if I'd had a choice.
I've never had as much difficulty with either P3 or Suretrak in trying
to build a schedule.

At this point, I suspect that we are going to have to agree to
disagree.

Larry

Steve
Mon Oct 17 13:53:13 CDT 2005

It's intersting you say that because Project's behaviour is extremely close
to the ANSI standard practices for critical path scheduling methodology as
outlined in the PMBOK from PMI. It's not 100%, but the "Guide to the PMBOK"
publication is just about the closest thing you'll find to a design spec for
MS Project outside the confines of the MS campus. One thing that might be a
stumbling point for you is that MSP is designed with the idea that the
schedule of the tasks will be adjusted so they occur when the required
resources are available rather than scheduling the resources around the
demands of the tasks. It is a task scheduling tool, not a resource
scheduling tool, and the work schedule of the resources is normally
considered to be externally determined, fixed and immutable. If the only
resource with the skill to wax the widgets works nights, that's when you
schedule the widget waxing task to place. But if he works days, you
schedule the task during the day. What you don't routinely do is say "We
will be ready to wax the widgets by the end of the day Tuesday and we need
them to be ready by Wednesday morning so Project should tell me to find
someone on the night shift on Tuesday in order for him to work on it." You
can do that as an exception, but it's strictly a manual process when you do
and Project is based on the opposite assumption that the work schedule
follows the qualified resource 99.99% of the time. So in that vein you are
correct in that it doesn't do a good job of scheduling resources over
differing shifts because frankly it doesn't schedule resources at all! Your
resources' schedules are a given, determined by factors completely outside
of the project universe, and the fixed schedule they work becomes an input
into Project as part of the data that tells it when it is permitted to
schedule the work they need to do.

--
Steve House [MVP]
MS Project Trainer & Consultant
Visit http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm for the FAQs





"snetzky" <snetzky@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1129556802.546715.161580@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>I understand how it's "supposed" to be done, but I didn't have that
> option. In a perfect world, I would have done all of the things you
> suggest. However, turnarounds are not software projects, and have
> entirely different issues. What I find interesting is that on other
> project management/scheduling/planning sites where I've discussed this,
> the prevailing opinion has been that Project is not the right tool for
> turnarounds because it doesn't do a good job of scheduling resources
> over differing shifts, etc. This has borne out time and time again.
>
> Frankly, I've never been able to get Project to make any kind of sense
> when running a schedule for any kind of project once I started adding
> resources, and I wouldn't have used it for this if I'd had a choice.
> I've never had as much difficulty with either P3 or Suretrak in trying
> to build a schedule.
>
> At this point, I suspect that we are going to have to agree to
> disagree.
>
> Larry
>

snetzky
Mon Oct 17 16:37:50 CDT 2005

I think the problem is that Project is indeed the wrong tool for this
kind of project.

Steve
Mon Oct 17 17:42:25 CDT 2005

I don't think its the type of project but rather the mind-set of the way the
PM approaches it and the culture of the organization that's doing it. I've
heard people say over and over "MS Project may be great for THAT kind of
project but it just won't work in my industry." The strange thing is, the
examples that people give as the type of project where it's "obviously" the
perfect tool are exactly the same examples other people give as industries
where it can never work. You contrasted your turnaround project with
software development and yet I've encountered PM's from the software
industry who swear the MSP is impossible to use for *their* special kind on
projects. <LOL> Fact is, it works fine regardless of the industry you're
working in IF you follow generally accepted CPM and PERT scheduling methods.
Every project regardless of industry or subject consists of one or more
discrete physical activities with observable start and end points taking
place over a finite period of time, performed by resources doing physical
work who are available during certain time periods and not available during
others, and that ultimately result in a unique tangible deliverable. IF you
list out the work that needs to be done as activities (I suggest starting
each task name with an action verb to keep it focused on the idea that it is
always a physical or creative activity) and the resources possessing the
skills to do it broken out as individuals groups identified by skill sets it
works out.
--
Steve House [MVP]
MS Project Trainer & Consultant
Visit http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm for the FAQs


"snetzky" <snetzky@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1129585070.444817.228920@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>I think the problem is that Project is indeed the wrong tool for this
> kind of project.
>