wired keyboard for Windows Mobile 5 devices? using a handheld PC as

I'm looking for an external keyboard for my smart phone (Verizon
XV6700, same as HTC Apache or Sprint PPC-6700). I tried bluetooth and
would prefer a good old fashioned wired keyboard that would plug into
the phone's mini USB port. Does anyone make one of these? I am not
seeing one. It's amazing that they make these great Windows enabled
phones and iPhones and you're on your own if you want to use a simple
ps2 keyboard/mouse!

Or does anyone know anything about connecting the phone to a Win CE or
PocketPC 2000 handheld? (ie NEC Mobilepro 770, 790) Those have nice
keyboards and decent screens too if you can somehow get it to act as
an external "monitor" for the phone. The handheld PC has a serial
cable, PCMCIA slot, IR and CF slot. The phone has a mini USB plug &
mini SD slot. I would prefer a wired solution, if it's not too hard. I
have the old eMbedded tools 3.0 for the handheld (VB, C++) and Vis
Studio 2003 & 2005 for the Mobile 5 phone and a *wee* bit of
experience wiring & programming a microcontroller to do serial
communication. Any ideas, web links, warnings, etc?

Sven
Thu Feb 21 20:00:00 CST 2008

Ain't happenin'. The problem is that the USB port on your PDA, and most
current ones, is a client port. USB comes in host (like on a PC) and client
flavors, like most peripherals. While you can make a cable for Host to Host
communication, to connect two PCs together to transfer files for instance,
you can't make a client talk to a client. Keyboards, mice, etc, are clients.

Your only option is BT. Never seen an old handheld option to use it as a
display for a PPC or Smartphone, though there have been a couple of new
devices that do just that announced, but not released. They also were
suggesting around $500 for SRP. Comments put that as a bit steep.

Unfortunately the current crop of WM devices also don't have serial inputs,
other than over a BT serial profile. Back in the WM2003SE days, and before,
many devices actually had RS232 capability at the docking port. Direct
connect keyboards were available back then.

BTW, where did you find a Windows enabled iPhone ;)

--
Sven
MVP Mobile Devices
<mad.scientist.jr@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:11e1a847-9189-420e-8dbd-ad09d79f0f8f@n58g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> I'm looking for an external keyboard for my smart phone (Verizon
> XV6700, same as HTC Apache or Sprint PPC-6700). I tried bluetooth and
> would prefer a good old fashioned wired keyboard that would plug into
> the phone's mini USB port. Does anyone make one of these? I am not
> seeing one. It's amazing that they make these great Windows enabled
> phones and iPhones and you're on your own if you want to use a simple
> ps2 keyboard/mouse!
>
> Or does anyone know anything about connecting the phone to a Win CE or
> PocketPC 2000 handheld? (ie NEC Mobilepro 770, 790) Those have nice
> keyboards and decent screens too if you can somehow get it to act as
> an external "monitor" for the phone. The handheld PC has a serial
> cable, PCMCIA slot, IR and CF slot. The phone has a mini USB plug &
> mini SD slot. I would prefer a wired solution, if it's not too hard. I
> have the old eMbedded tools 3.0 for the handheld (VB, C++) and Vis
> Studio 2003 & 2005 for the Mobile 5 phone and a *wee* bit of
> experience wiring & programming a microcontroller to do serial
> communication. Any ideas, web links, warnings, etc?
>

Christopher
Thu Feb 21 20:36:05 CST 2008

Hi,

<mad.scientist.jr@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:11e1a847-9189-420e-8dbd-ad09d79f0f8f@n58g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> Or does anyone know anything about connecting the phone to a Win CE or
> PocketPC 2000 handheld? (ie NEC Mobilepro 770, 790) Those have nice
> keyboards and decent screens too if you can somehow get it to act as
> an external "monitor" for the phone.

That sounds kind of like the use case scenario of a device such as the Red
Fly mobile companion by Celio (http://www.celiocorp.com/products.php)

You will probably find it tough to find a wired keyboard for most of the
existing Windows Mobile PDAs. Most PDAs (including the HTC Apache if I
remember correctly) do not have the USB host functionality required to
connect to USB function devices such as HID keyboards (USB has two different
types of devices, hosts and functions with one of each type being needed for
a connection to successfully work). This is similiar to how most devices do
not have end user accessible serial ports.

Hope this helps,
Christopher Fairbairn

Beverly
Thu Feb 21 21:00:09 CST 2008

To add to the other two responders, bluetooth is the way to go...
primary reason? It has connection options with devices down the line
including PC's even in light of stowaway's announcement that it would
cease driver updates... which means the pocketpc specific keys such as
"OK" won't work, the keyboard as a whole will work with any ppc with
bluetooth.

Some of the early ppc keyboards were serial, each with a specific
connector for the pda it was sold for. It was possible to custom rewire
those for ppc's which had serial ports, but, in order to get the serial
data into the ppc's keyboard buffer, ppc specific drivers were required.

Beverly Howard [MS MVP-Mobile Devices]

mad
Thu Feb 21 23:24:02 CST 2008

Hmmmmmm.

How about IR?

It shouldn't be too hard to program an eMbedded VB terminal program to
send keystrokes from the handheld's keyboard to a compact framework
app on the phone. Getting the phone's app to then send the keystrokes
(& possibly pen/mouse input) to Word/Excel/Pocket IE/etc might be
tricky. Would that mean having to write a device driver for the
phone? Would Fast IR be quick enough to send data to drive a
display? Even just the keyboard part would be a better keyboard than
the folding keyboards.


On Feb 21, 10:00 pm, "Beverly Howard [Ms-MVP/MobileDev]"
<BevNoSpamBevHoward.com> wrote:
> To add to the other two responders, bluetooth is the way to go...
> primary reason? It has connection options with devices down the line
> including PC's even in light of stowaway's announcement that it would
> cease driver updates... which means the pocketpc specific keys such as
> "OK" won't work, the keyboard as a whole will work with any ppc with
> bluetooth.
>
> Some of the early ppc keyboards were serial, each with a specific
> connector for the pda it was sold for. It was possible to custom rewire
> those for ppc's which had serial ports, but, in order to get the serial
> data into the ppc's keyboard buffer, ppc specific drivers were required.
>
> Beverly Howard [MS MVP-Mobile Devices]

Beverly
Fri Feb 22 10:25:10 CST 2008

>> How about IR? <<

Think anyone who has worked with both ir and bt keyboards would express
joy with the advantages bluetooth brings over ir.

A number of ir keyboards appeared before bt and, in my experience, they
were marginal at best... communication was "iffy" to impossible
depending on the location of the ir ports.

That, plus, ir may be still around but will it be for long? I note that
many current models don't seem to show it in their specs.

Beverly Howard [MS MVP-Mobile Devices]

Sven
Fri Feb 22 20:24:53 CST 2008

Maybe, but the devices with any sort of IR are getting more limited too. As
was mentioned there were a good number of IR based portable (read folding)
keyboards around. Biggest issue there was where the various manufacturers
chose to put the IR port wasn't always convenient.

Who said you needed to use a folding keyboard? HID (Human Interface Device)
is a BT standard. Issue is the driver on the WM Device. Some have them, some
don't. The TO drivers can work with a regular BT keyboard, just most folks
tend to have mobility in mind when they get a PDA. If you are just looking
for a faster way to get info into the PPC, but don't need to move it around,
try something like Pocket Controller by SOTI

--
Sven
MVP Mobile Devices
<mad.scientist.jr@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5472d45d-fae1-4d87-a322-690b73a8b044@34g2000hsz.googlegroups.com...
> Hmmmmmm.
>
>Would Fast IR be quick enough to send data to drive a
> display? Even just the keyboard part would be a better keyboard than
> the folding keyboards.
>

mad
Mon Feb 25 18:00:21 CST 2008

Thanks to everyone for your replies.

The Red Fly mobile companion has some nice features but it's cost 5x
what I'd be willing to pay and is probably more than I really need - a
*good* and quick to setup keyboard to access Word/Excel/Outlook on my
mobile 5 phone during meetings, travel, etc. For these situations the
half screen hand helds such as NEC Mobile Pro 790 are such a great,
practical format and are what I used until I started relying on the
phone more (and with the data plan that about seals it).

For a keyboard what matters is: set up time, as close to a "real"
keyboard as possible (ie dedicated number keys), low maintenance and
reliability.

I had a folding bluetooth keyboard. It was one of the more highly
rated ones (by ThinkOutside) with a dedicated numeric row.
It broke within a few weeks (a tiny screw came out, loosening a part,
and it wouldn't activate when you opened it half the time).
Having to keep replacing the batteries on the keyboard was a pain.
Having to replace the battery on the bluetooth mouse was an additional
pain.
Having to sync BOTH devices with bluetooth every time I wanted to do
some typing was another two pains.
So it really didn't satisfy the criteria I am looking for:
I don't want to have to unfold a keyboard.
Folding keyboards are flimsy, have too many points of failure, require
batteries, and are uncomfortable.
I don't want to have to sync bluetooth. It takes time, and even more
time to also sync a mouse.
Bah humbug!
All I want is to just plug in a wired keyboard (with an integrated
touchpad) and type.

BTW - placement of the IR isn't an issue. The NEC MobilePro handheld
has the IR on the rear, and the phone has the IR on its side, so you
just place the phone directly behind the handheld and leave it there.
This would be fine for meetings where there is an even surface to use.
The train is another story.

But on a train / in an airport / etc, the need for a quick setup of
the keyboard is even more important, since you may be moving around a
lot, getting up and changing trains, etc. The handheld PC excels at
this (and being a CE device with instant on, no bootup time is
necessary). So I guess I'll be using my handheld and just continuing
to transfer files to my phone with a memory card. It just boggles my
mind that no one has thought to make it possible to simply plug in a
keyboard :->

Grouchily yours,



On Feb 22, 9:24 pm, "Sven" <sejohann...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Maybe, but the devices with any sort of IR are getting more limited too. As
> was mentioned there were a good number of IR based portable (read folding)
> keyboards around. Biggest issue there was where the various manufacturers
> chose to put the IR port wasn't always convenient.
>
> Who said you needed to use a folding keyboard? HID (Human Interface Device)
> is a BT standard. Issue is the driver on the WM Device. Some have them, some
> don't. The TO drivers can work with a regular BT keyboard, just most folks
> tend to have mobility in mind when they get a PDA. If you are just looking
> for a faster way to get info into the PPC, but don't need to move it around,
> try something like Pocket Controller by SOTI
>
> --
> Sven
> MVP Mobile Devices<mad.scientist...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:5472d45d-fae1-4d87-a322-690b73a8b044@34g2000hsz.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Hmmmmmm.
>
> >Would Fast IR be quick enough to send data to drive a
> > display? Even just the keyboard part would be a better keyboard than
> > the folding keyboards.

Sven
Mon Feb 25 23:33:56 CST 2008

We talked around a lot of stuff, but actually people have thought to do
that. Kicker is that you have to have a Host port on the PPC. There are some
such PPCs. Don't off-hand know of any very current ones, as they never were
the mainstream manufacturers. In any case, such things exist(ed). The next
challenge was getting drivers for whatever USB device you wanted to connect.
Typically that is left to the USB device manufacturer, and as you can
imagine, not many wrote PPC drivers, as the PPCs that could use them were
minimal. External USB drives tended to work, because the drivers were
inherent in PPCs. Keyboards tended to work, and mice too, but without a
mouse pointer they were a bit tough to use. ( The TO driver for the mouse
adds a cursor).

Beyond that there were some enthusiast sites that worked on other things.
Don't recall what they achieved, and don't know if they are still as active
with WM5/6 devices. Seemed like they were always trying to get USB web cams
to work.

A second option was that there were (are) a couple of CF USB Host cards out
there. With that and a PPC that has a CF slot, you could hook up a
keyboard....again the driver is needed but I bet could be found. I'll tell
you up front the CF Host cards were around $125 - $150. Never saw anything
smaller than a CF either.

So maybe, if you got a CF Host card for the handheld, and somebody wrote
'SOTI' for the handheld, you could get what you are looking for. Sort of
what the RedFly is/does.

--
Sven
MVP Mobile Devices
<mad.scientist.jr@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:00691c8c-1574-4fcb-b854-a59b4a082622@71g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> It just boggles my
> mind that no one has thought to make it possible to simply plug in a
> keyboard :->
>
> Grouchily yours,
>
>

Werner
Tue Feb 26 02:03:59 CST 2008

Yup, USB hosts (as opposed to the much dumber OTG) were "only" present in
the following (old) devices built-in:

Fujitsu-Siemens's standalone WM2003SE+ PDA's (PL720, N560 etc)
Toshiba's E750, E800, E830

I've thoroughly tested external USB keyboards with my PL720; most of them
worked OK.

These devices are, of course, old and not recommended - not even the latest
N560 with the latest ("unofficial") upgrades.

I've also elaborated on the old, CF-based USB host cards - see my blog.

HOWEVER!!! The latest HP iPAQ 21x does have USB host functionality built-in.
While there still isn't a cable / cradle that makes this functionality
accessible, I think it's a sensible move to get the device as it's really
cool. See for example the Brighthand and the MobilitySite forums (
http://forum.brighthand.com/forumdisplay.php?f=1333 ) for more info. I'll
also devote a bigger article to the iPAQ 21x in my blog in the near future.


--


--
Werner "Menneisyys" Ruotsalainen - Microsoft MVP - Windows - Mobile Devices
Please see the Pocket PC Mag Expert Blog (including mine) at
http://www.pocketpcmag.com/blogs/ - you will definitely like it.


"Sven" <sejohannsen@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:36354506-49FE-4D04-8811-08C7D9D88CDD@microsoft.com...
> We talked around a lot of stuff, but actually people have thought to do
> that. Kicker is that you have to have a Host port on the PPC. There are
> some such PPCs. Don't off-hand know of any very current ones, as they
> never were the mainstream manufacturers. In any case, such things
> exist(ed). The next challenge was getting drivers for whatever USB device
> you wanted to connect. Typically that is left to the USB device
> manufacturer, and as you can imagine, not many wrote PPC drivers, as the
> PPCs that could use them were minimal. External USB drives tended to
> work, because the drivers were inherent in PPCs. Keyboards tended to work,
> and mice too, but without a mouse pointer they were a bit tough to use.
> ( The TO driver for the mouse adds a cursor).
>
> Beyond that there were some enthusiast sites that worked on other things.
> Don't recall what they achieved, and don't know if they are still as
> active with WM5/6 devices. Seemed like they were always trying to get USB
> web cams to work.
>
> A second option was that there were (are) a couple of CF USB Host cards
> out there. With that and a PPC that has a CF slot, you could hook up a
> keyboard....again the driver is needed but I bet could be found. I'll tell
> you up front the CF Host cards were around $125 - $150. Never saw anything
> smaller than a CF either.
>
> So maybe, if you got a CF Host card for the handheld, and somebody wrote
> 'SOTI' for the handheld, you could get what you are looking for. Sort of
> what the RedFly is/does.
>
> --
> Sven
> MVP Mobile Devices
> <mad.scientist.jr@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:00691c8c-1574-4fcb-b854-a59b4a082622@71g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>> It just boggles my
>> mind that no one has thought to make it possible to simply plug in a
>> keyboard :->
>>
>> Grouchily yours,
>>
>>
>

Todd
Tue Feb 26 03:35:30 CST 2008

At 25 Feb 2008 16:00:21 -0800 mad.scientist.jr@gmail.com wrote:
> It just boggles my
> mind that no one has thought to make it possible to simply plug in a
> keyboard :->


Perhaps, but I think that was assumed to be an unimportant, unnecessary
peripheral for that portable a device. While a good sized keyboard is a
nice thing, and the Handheld PC's clamshell form-factor had it's uses, the
marketplace spoke on that issue long ago. (Remember the HPC and PPC co-
existed for a few years. The ultra-portability of the PPC form-factor won
out.)

My NEC MobilePro 790 sits rarely used these days, receiving far more dust
than e-mail, unfortunately! Using a stylus for over a half-decade makes
one pretty quick with it, and a device the size of a deck of cards fits in
the pocket better than one the size of cribbage board! ;-)

dvt
Tue Feb 26 07:56:04 CST 2008

mad.scientist.jr@gmail.com wrote:
> It just boggles my
> mind that no one has thought to make it possible to simply plug in a
> keyboard :->

Someone posted this at brighthand:

http://tinyurl.com/2mjlzl

Scroll down to see an iPAQ 21x, presumably connected to a USB keyboard.
I don't think the connector is commercially available yet, but it looks
like HP is promising that it will be available in the future.

--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu

Beverly
Tue Feb 26 09:20:00 CST 2008

>> I've thoroughly tested external USB keyboards with my PL720; most of
them worked OK. <<

Strangely, BT keyboards seem to be the exception to HID compatibility...
while all of the BT keyboards aimed at mobile devices seem to work on BT
PC's and laptops, the MS bluetooth keyboard does not work with WinMobile
devices.

>> The latest HP iPAQ 21x does have USB host functionality built-in.
While there still isn't a cable / cradle that makes this functionality
accessible <<

Since all of the usb connectors (we assume) conform to the usb pin outs,
assuming you have a usb sync/power cable, find a USB-A female to USB-A
female and it will provide the ability to connect USB keyboard.

Beverly Howard [MS MVP-Mobile Devices]

Beverly
Tue Feb 26 09:36:04 CST 2008

>> The ultra-portability of the PPC form-factor won out. <<

Back in my laptop mobile days, the concept of "carry weight" was born in
my tiny brain when traveling... specifically, the split between what I
carried on my person vs what would go in checked luggage to be available
in hotel or onsite, which normally included keyboard and other
large/heavy necessary items.

It's a bit dated, but http://bevhoward.com/TravLite.htm elaborates on
lightweight travel.

Beverly Howard [MS MVP-Mobile Devices]

mad
Tue Feb 26 12:11:24 CST 2008

>Sven wrote:
>Kicker is that you have to have a Host port on the PPC.

This is where IR becomes useful. It is present in many legacy devices,
providing a common thread between different platforms. From a DIY
perspective, IR is cheap and easy to develop for DIY circuits &
microcontrollers. Try building your own bluetooth or USB device and
see what it costs you in time & $$$! As far as lining up IR ports,
why not just build a cable adapter that you velcro onto the phone's
and handheld's IR ports? Building a "wireless to wired" cable (at
least for one-way communication, which is all we need for connecting
an alternate input device) is simple - google "ir extender schematics"
and you will find plenty of plans. I found one that takes an ir
sensor, ir emitter, 2 transistors, a capacitor and 4 resistors, under
$10. True it takes 5v so you'd need a battery, but so does a bluetooth
keyboard & mouse. So the remaining challenge is to write a driver or
some kind of service(?) that runs in the background and scans for
input from the IR port and does a sendkeys to the currently running
app, and if we are supporting a pointer, draws a cursor on the screen
and controls screen taps. It's just programming at that point, all you
need is VS.NET and MSDN.

>Todd Allcock wrote:
>Perhaps, but I think that was assumed to be an unimportant, unnecessary peripheral for that portable a device.

Until they stated making these devices as powerful as laptops - with
wifi, (semi)capable web browsers, 2+ GB memory cards, cell phone,
digital camera, camcorder, voice recorder, and MS Office / Outlook,
people's phones are becoming their portable office.

I think the problem with HPCs was limited compatibility - they ran CE
and not regular Windows which limited peripherals (make one that's a
USB2 host and works with a peripheral's regular Windows drivers), and
applications (the breaking point being the outdated Web browser with
no modern upgrade). Even so I still find my 10 yr old handheld with
Office 97 incredibly useful for Word/Excel/calendar/drawing. And
people *still* come up to me in the diner, airport, office, etc, and
say that's the coolest smallest laptop they've EVER seen.

Now imagine a tiny laptop with a solid state hdd and instant on that
runs all your desktop PC's apps and works with your desktop's
peripherals. Even Apple is coming around to this format. Hmm.

>My NEC MobilePro 790 sits rarely used these days

Maybe it wouldn't if it had wifi and a modern Web browser :->
(the eMbedded VB/C++ tools are out there to build one, not that I have
the inclination or time)

>and a device the size of a deck of cards fits in the pocket

Miniaturization keeps evolving, but until we can shrink our fingers
and have telephoto vision, at some point shrinking screens & keyboards
just becomes painful. I find the HPC half-screen format is right at
the line where it's big enough to be comfortable & usable, but small
enough to be reasonably portable - the 790 fits in a tiny back pack /
purse / bag, good enough for meetings, the airport, train, etc.

Thanks again for your (and everyone's) reply...

Cheers!



On Feb 26, 4:35 am, Todd Allcock <eleccon...@AmericaOnLine.com> wrote:
> At 25 Feb 2008 16:00:21 -0800 mad.scientist...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > It just boggles my
> > mind that no one has thought to make it possible to simply plug in a
> > keyboard :->
>
> Perhaps, but I think that was assumed to be an unimportant, unnecessary
> peripheral for that portable a device. While a good sized keyboard is a
> nice thing, and the Handheld PC's clamshell form-factor had it's uses, the
> marketplace spoke on that issue long ago. (Remember the HPC and PPC co-
> existed for a few years. The ultra-portability of the PPC form-factor won
> out.)
>
> My NEC MobilePro 790 sits rarely used these days, receiving far more dust
> than e-mail, unfortunately! Using a stylus for over a half-decade makes
> one pretty quick with it, and a device the size of a deck of cards fits in
> the pocket better than one the size of cribbage board! ;-)

dvt
Tue Feb 26 12:23:06 CST 2008

mad.scientist.jr@gmail.com wrote:
> Now imagine a tiny laptop with a solid state hdd and instant on that
> runs all your desktop PC's apps and works with your desktop's
> peripherals.

Have you looked at the EEE PC from Asus?

--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu

Christopher
Tue Feb 26 15:14:09 CST 2008

Hi,

> >> The latest HP iPAQ 21x does have USB host functionality built-in.


"Beverly Howard [Ms-MVP/MobileDev]" <BevNoSpamBevHoward.com> wrote in
message news:OFeBQsIeIHA.5984@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
> Since all of the usb connectors (we assume) conform to the usb pin outs,
> assuming you have a usb sync/power cable, find a USB-A female to USB-A
> female and it will provide the ability to connect USB keyboard.

This is not quite true, atleast for the couple of USB enabled PDAs I have
played with. The USB specification defines two types of devices, USB hosts
and USB functions.

Typically a PDA or keyboard is a USB function, while a desktop PC is a USB
host. In simplified terms you need both a host and a function in order to
create a successful connection. The HOST is the master of communications,
while the FUNCTION is the slave device.

This is why many of the PDAs which sync over USB can't connect to USB
keyboards since the USB hardware/software stack is designed as a USB
function so it can only connect to a USB Host (i.e. typically a PC) which
can control the bus.

A number of the newer PDAs which are starting to support USB functionality
to access pendrives and keyboards etc implement a standard called USB
on-the-go, which enables a device to detect when it should switch between
being a USB host or USB function. Typically this requires a special cable,
due to the wiring of the plug (it has an extra pin) this enables the device
connected to each end of the cable to detect if it should be a USB host or
USB function.

The wikipedia article on USB on the go -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_On-The-Go has a good overview of this.

Hope this helps,
Christopher Fairbairn

ctacke/>
Tue Feb 26 15:33:07 CST 2008

> Since all of the usb connectors (we assume) conform to the usb pin outs,
> assuming you have a usb sync/power cable, find a USB-A female to USB-A
> female and it will provide the ability to connect USB keyboard.

That's patently false. Electrically USB host and USB slave are not the
same, and changing connectors will not make them so. I fyou don't have a
host controller (and most PDAs don't) you can't use it as a host. Even if
you did, you also need the host driver and the HID class driver, which the
PDA still won't have.


--

Chris Tacke, eMVP
Join the Embedded Developer Community
http://community.opennetcf.com

Sven
Tue Feb 26 22:00:48 CST 2008

Don't need much imagination
http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/19/hps-umpc-2133-revealed/

--
Sven
MVP Mobile Devices
<mad.scientist.jr@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:825dd219-c0b4-4305-98f8-ca9e22530cf3@n58g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> >Sven wrote:
>
> Now imagine a tiny laptop with a solid state hdd and instant on that
> runs all your desktop PC's apps and works with your desktop's
> peripherals. Even Apple is coming around to this format. Hmm.
>

Beverly
Wed Feb 27 10:13:15 CST 2008

>> patently false <<

Well, guess all those years of mixing and matching usb connectors with
client devices finally caught up with me... thanks for the ruler on the
knuckles... I think ;-)

Beverly Howard [MS MVP-Mobile Devices]