now, I find that ms talk more and more c# .net cf 2.0 for wm 5.0
I don't know whether ms will regard vc++ as same as .net cf 2.0.
Who knew that?
Thank you

Re: WM5.0 VC++ by Yaroslav

Yaroslav
Tue Aug 22 03:46:13 CDT 2006

Currently .NET CF 2.0 is almost a perfect environment for mobile enterprise
applications (much better than C++). However, for mass market products
native C++ is still the primary option. Take a look at the top 100 best
selling application list and count how may programs are coded in C#
(answer - very few).

--
Yaroslav Goncharov
Spb Software House, http://spbsoftwarehouse.com
Pocket PC Developer Network, http://pocketpcdn.com


"bill" <bill@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:14E7DF31-AC02-4F3E-9530-8541F730EBE3@microsoft.com...
> now, I find that ms talk more and more c# .net cf 2.0 for wm 5.0
> I don't know whether ms will regard vc++ as same as .net cf 2.0.
> Who knew that?
> Thank you



Re: WM5.0 VC++ by bill

bill
Tue Aug 22 06:50:02 CDT 2006

Yaroslav
Where can look at the top 100 best selling application list ?
Can you paste the url thank you.
And why the native C++ is still the primary option?
Maybe because it is need not to install cf2.0 environment ?

"Yaroslav Goncharov" wrote:

> Currently .NET CF 2.0 is almost a perfect environment for mobile enterprise
> applications (much better than C++). However, for mass market products
> native C++ is still the primary option. Take a look at the top 100 best
> selling application list and count how may programs are coded in C#
> (answer - very few).
>
> --
> Yaroslav Goncharov
> Spb Software House, http://spbsoftwarehouse.com
> Pocket PC Developer Network, http://pocketpcdn.com
>
>
> "bill" <bill@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:14E7DF31-AC02-4F3E-9530-8541F730EBE3@microsoft.com...
> > now, I find that ms talk more and more c# .net cf 2.0 for wm 5.0
> > I don't know whether ms will regard vc++ as same as .net cf 2.0.
> > Who knew that?
> > Thank you
>
>
>

Re: WM5.0 VC++ by Mike

Mike
Wed Aug 23 03:37:23 CDT 2006

My guess would be that it's still used because there's a massive base of
developers used to developing in Win32 and MFC native code, whereas CF is
relatively new and therefore is still being learned. The installation of the
CF is probably also a factor - it was always a real pain for my customers to
have to install evb runtimes when they stopped being included in newer
devices.

Mike.


"bill" <bill@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:4790128F-B544-4B3C-9208-1A92F756E613@microsoft.com...
> Yaroslav
> Where can look at the top 100 best selling application list ?
> Can you paste the url thank you.
> And why the native C++ is still the primary option?
> Maybe because it is need not to install cf2.0 environment ?
>
> "Yaroslav Goncharov" wrote:
>
>> Currently .NET CF 2.0 is almost a perfect environment for mobile
>> enterprise
>> applications (much better than C++). However, for mass market products
>> native C++ is still the primary option. Take a look at the top 100 best
>> selling application list and count how may programs are coded in C#
>> (answer - very few).
>>
>> --
>> Yaroslav Goncharov
>> Spb Software House, http://spbsoftwarehouse.com
>> Pocket PC Developer Network, http://pocketpcdn.com
>>
>>
>> "bill" <bill@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
>> news:14E7DF31-AC02-4F3E-9530-8541F730EBE3@microsoft.com...
>> > now, I find that ms talk more and more c# .net cf 2.0 for wm 5.0
>> > I don't know whether ms will regard vc++ as same as .net cf 2.0.
>> > Who knew that?
>> > Thank you
>>
>>
>>



Re: WM5.0 VC++ by r_z_aret

r_z_aret
Wed Aug 23 11:00:43 CDT 2006

On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 09:37:23 +0100, "Mike Edwards" <test@test.com>
wrote:

>My guess would be that it's still used because there's a massive base of
>developers used to developing in Win32 and MFC native code, whereas CF is
>relatively new and therefore is still being learned. The installation of the
>CF is probably also a factor - it was always a real pain for my customers to
>have to install evb runtimes when they stopped being included in newer
>devices.

I haven't switched from C/C++ to a .NET language because:

1) I have development tools that work well for me. Don't fix it if it
ain't broke.

2) Switching would require changing a _lot_ of code.

3) Last I checked, CF lacked some important UI features. I _think_
listboxes.

4) We're thinking about supporting non-Microsoft operating systems,
and hope to share source code.

5) I'm concerned about deployment issues. CF versions introduce yet
another compatibility issue, and I still support devices with no CF
support at all.

5) Performance.

6) All .NET languages create "executables" that is human readable.
Yes, obfuscators exist, but so do deobfuscators. And yes, even this
form is way too hard for most users. But we're still concerned


>
>Mike.
>
>
>"bill" <bill@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
>news:4790128F-B544-4B3C-9208-1A92F756E613@microsoft.com...
>> Yaroslav
>> Where can look at the top 100 best selling application list ?
>> Can you paste the url thank you.
>> And why the native C++ is still the primary option?
>> Maybe because it is need not to install cf2.0 environment ?
>>
>> "Yaroslav Goncharov" wrote:
>>
>>> Currently .NET CF 2.0 is almost a perfect environment for mobile
>>> enterprise
>>> applications (much better than C++). However, for mass market products
>>> native C++ is still the primary option. Take a look at the top 100 best
>>> selling application list and count how may programs are coded in C#
>>> (answer - very few).
>>>
>>> --
>>> Yaroslav Goncharov
>>> Spb Software House, http://spbsoftwarehouse.com
>>> Pocket PC Developer Network, http://pocketpcdn.com
>>>
>>>
>>> "bill" <bill@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
>>> news:14E7DF31-AC02-4F3E-9530-8541F730EBE3@microsoft.com...
>>> > now, I find that ms talk more and more c# .net cf 2.0 for wm 5.0
>>> > I don't know whether ms will regard vc++ as same as .net cf 2.0.
>>> > Who knew that?
>>> > Thank you
>>>
>>>
>>>
>

-----------------------------------------
To reply to me, remove the underscores (_) from my email address (and please indicate which newsgroup and message).

Robert E. Zaret, eMVP
PenFact, Inc.
20 Park Plaza, Suite 478
Boston, MA 02116
www.penfact.com

Re: WM5.0 VC++ by Mike

Mike
Thu Aug 24 12:51:44 CDT 2006

or that C# is slow as a dog on a 300mhz arm processor
Mike Edwards wrote:
> My guess would be that it's still used because there's a massive base of
> developers used to developing in Win32 and MFC native code, whereas CF is
> relatively new and therefore is still being learned. The installation of the
> CF is probably also a factor - it was always a real pain for my customers to
> have to install evb runtimes when they stopped being included in newer

Re: WM5.0 VC++ by Mike

Mike
Thu Aug 24 12:57:51 CDT 2006

Another reason I am using C++ is that my desktop/pocketpc app use the
same code base and i would argue that c++ is more portable then c#
between ce and xp. I'm not using mfc. Aside from different resource
files and project files, the code is identical for both platforms.

We have a very large application that we are porting from the palm
platform that uses a lot of packed palm databases with 1000's of
records. I first built a proof of concept app in C# and the performance
was really unacceptable. File seeks seem to be very expensive in it.
So I rewrote the app in c++ and it was at least 10x faster. Maybe in a
few more chip revs, C# will be viable for us on the ppc.

the other problem is while C# 2.0 is a major improvement, its not in any
of the device roms and we arent going make people download and install
it to use our app.

Re: WM5.0 VC++ by ctacke/>

ctacke/>
Thu Aug 24 13:24:55 CDT 2006

I'd disagree on this. If it's slow it's because implementation is poor.
JITted C# is just as fast as compiled C++ when the source it written
properly.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/en-us/dnnetcomp/html/jittedcode_cf2.asp?frame=true

--
Chris Tacke
OpenNETCF Consulting
Managed Code in the Embedded World
www.opennetcf.com
--




"Mike Margerum" <junk@mail.com> wrote in message
news:%23ljy2X6xGHA.2384@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
> or that C# is slow as a dog on a 300mhz arm processor
> Mike Edwards wrote:
>> My guess would be that it's still used because there's a massive base of
>> developers used to developing in Win32 and MFC native code, whereas CF is
>> relatively new and therefore is still being learned. The installation of
>> the CF is probably also a factor - it was always a real pain for my
>> customers to have to install evb runtimes when they stopped being
>> included in newer



Re: WM5.0 VC++ by Brooke

Brooke
Thu Aug 24 14:28:28 CDT 2006

I have been doing some raw speed testing between CF1, CF2, C#, and VB.NET.
In the process, I found a project that I converted from native C to C# a
few years ago and I decided to add it to mix. The app loaded instantly on
my PPC-6700 while the .net app took four seconds to load! I was able to
open the native C app, do the updates, and close it before the .net app even
opened. I then wrote a native C Towers of Hanoi app so that I could include
it in my performance analysis and I came up with some interesting results...

VB.NET is much slower using the 2.0 framework than it was on the 1.1
framework, both on the desktop and on the compact framework.
C# is faster on the 2.0 framework, both on the desktop and on the compact
framework.

Native C code smokes all of the .NET framework apps.

I know that there is a trade off between development time and performance,
and native code definitely requires more development time, but the
performance is so much better.

I am in the process of rewriting about 20 compact framework application.
The rewrite it going very smoothly as all of the .net apps were written in
C# and it is easy to make the minor modifications as required. I also had
to use a lot of interop calls in the .net apps because of the limitations of
the compact framework where it is just a simple API call in native C.

I am still going to use the .net framework for my ASP.NET development and
any major database applications.

Posted below are some of the results.

Compact Framework 1.0 - Towers of Hanoi

25 Discs 28 Discs 29 Discs
---------------------------------------------------------
C# 11.094 secs 90.264 secs 176.711 secs
VB 10.363 secs 81.298 secs 162.115 secs


Compact Framework 2.0 - Towers of Hanoi

25 Discs 28 Discs 29 Discs
---------------------------------------------------------
C# 9.928 secs 78.868 secs 158.123 secs
VB 13.586 secs 108.533 secs 216.583 secs
Native C 3.967 secs 31.697 secs 63.619 secs


"<ctacke/>" <ctacke[@]opennetcf[dot]com> wrote in message
news:OeXJjq6xGHA.3552@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> I'd disagree on this. If it's slow it's because implementation is poor.
> JITted C# is just as fast as compiled C++ when the source it written
> properly.
>
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/en-us/dnnetcomp/html/jittedcode_cf2.asp?frame=true
>
> --
> Chris Tacke
> OpenNETCF Consulting
> Managed Code in the Embedded World
> www.opennetcf.com
> --
>
>
>
>
> "Mike Margerum" <junk@mail.com> wrote in message
> news:%23ljy2X6xGHA.2384@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>> or that C# is slow as a dog on a 300mhz arm processor
>> Mike Edwards wrote:
>>> My guess would be that it's still used because there's a massive base of
>>> developers used to developing in Win32 and MFC native code, whereas CF
>>> is relatively new and therefore is still being learned. The installation
>>> of the CF is probably also a factor - it was always a real pain for my
>>> customers to have to install evb runtimes when they stopped being
>>> included in newer
>
>



Re: WM5.0 VC++ by Mike

Mike
Thu Aug 24 15:35:33 CDT 2006

I wasnt aware there was a jit'er for the compact framework. Can you
pelase provide a link?

The implementation wasnt poor... been doing this for a long time
<ctacke/> wrote:
> I'd disagree on this. If it's slow it's because implementation is poor.
> JITted C# is just as fast as compiled C++ when the source it written
> properly.
>
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/en-us/dnnetcomp/html/jittedcode_cf2.asp?frame=true
>

Re: WM5.0 VC++ by Mike

Mike
Thu Aug 24 15:41:43 CDT 2006

didn't know CF 2 came with jit. That's good to know. it doesn't
however change the fact that my file io routines were 20x slower in C#
than in C++.

Re: WM5.0 VC++ by Mike

Mike
Thu Aug 24 15:42:24 CDT 2006

disregard this post. i see this article is about the CF2. thanks for
the link.

Re: WM5.0 VC++ by Yaroslav

Yaroslav
Mon Sep 04 02:49:03 CDT 2006

For the list of top 100 best selling programs for Pocket PC visit
handango.com
http://www.handango.com/SoftwareCatalog.jsp?siteId=1&jid=DEFB8C566X9A5C846435BF8C411C9943&platformId=2&N=96806

--
Yaroslav Goncharov
Spb Software House, http://spbsoftwarehouse.com
Pocket PC Developer Network, http://pocketpcdn.com


"bill" <bill@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:4790128F-B544-4B3C-9208-1A92F756E613@microsoft.com...
> Yaroslav
> Where can look at the top 100 best selling application list ?
> Can you paste the url thank you.
> And why the native C++ is still the primary option?
> Maybe because it is need not to install cf2.0 environment ?
>
> "Yaroslav Goncharov" wrote:
>
>> Currently .NET CF 2.0 is almost a perfect environment for mobile
>> enterprise
>> applications (much better than C++). However, for mass market products
>> native C++ is still the primary option. Take a look at the top 100 best
>> selling application list and count how may programs are coded in C#
>> (answer - very few).
>>
>> --
>> Yaroslav Goncharov
>> Spb Software House, http://spbsoftwarehouse.com
>> Pocket PC Developer Network, http://pocketpcdn.com
>>
>>
>> "bill" <bill@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
>> news:14E7DF31-AC02-4F3E-9530-8541F730EBE3@microsoft.com...
>> > now, I find that ms talk more and more c# .net cf 2.0 for wm 5.0
>> > I don't know whether ms will regard vc++ as same as .net cf 2.0.
>> > Who knew that?
>> > Thank you
>>
>>
>>