Monthly report -- dangerous inaccuracies

I've found another area (most recent was a similar problem with the
budget feature) where microsoft's Money team seems to ignore basic
accounting rules, to the detriment of the user.

Here's the issue.

The monthly report aggregates data from all (open?) accounts (including
investment accounts). If you happen to sell stock during the month you
are reporting on, it shows up in the report as "income". This is
improper, and misleading.

Selling a stock does not create "income". It is merely converting an
asset from one type (stock) to another type (cash) of equal value.
When the net change in value is zero, there is no income.

This is a problem because major financial problems could be masked.

To take a simple example, if I have $3000 per month in salary income
and $4000 in expenses, I have a $1000 per month deficit. If I elect to
sell $1000 of stock per month to make up the difference, Money's
monthly report will show me as "breaking even". In fact, the opposite
is true -- my net worth is decreasing at $1000 per month.

You can even be misled into thinking that you are putting money away
(for instance, if you sold $2000 of stock per month in the above
example, in which case Money would indicate net monthly income
"available for savings" of $1000), when in fact you are still burning
cash.

This is a mind-numbingly stupid and dangerous mistake.

Anyone have any thoughts on a fix?

Dick
Sat May 20 10:59:23 CDT 2006

No thoughts on a fix. That's the way it works. It's just another example
where you have to be prepared to understand what it's telling you and why.
BTW, I'm not sure I'd call it "inaccurate" in the sense that 2+2=5 is
inaccurate. Misleading, maybe.

FWIW, I surely agree with you that calling this income when it's just
another form of net worth neutral transfer is dumb.

<jgirard@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1148137695.707089.128190@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Anyone have any thoughts on a fix?

Jonathan
Sat May 20 14:41:21 CDT 2006


I was under the impression that it is reporting the difference between
the sales price and the cost basis as income. This could be
considered as income, but it is still not right, especially if it is
in an IRA account. I believe dividends are also included in income,
but if it is in an IRA or other investment account, you are not going
to be spending it. I have even seen a overdraft advance shown as
income.

Jonathan



On 20 May 2006 08:08:15 -0700, "jgirard@gmail.com" <jgirard@gmail.com>
wrote:

>I've found another area (most recent was a similar problem with the
>budget feature) where microsoft's Money team seems to ignore basic
>accounting rules, to the detriment of the user.
>
>Here's the issue.
>
>The monthly report aggregates data from all (open?) accounts (including
>investment accounts). If you happen to sell stock during the month you
>are reporting on, it shows up in the report as "income". This is
>improper, and misleading.e concidered income,
>
>Selling a stock does not create "income". It is merely converting an
>asset from one type (stock) to another type (cash) of equal value.
>When the net change in value is zero, there is no income.
>
>This is a problem because major financial problems could be masked.
>
>To take a simple example, if I have $3000 per month in salary income
>and $4000 in expenses, I have a $1000 per month deficit. If I elect to
>sell $1000 of stock per month to make up the difference, Money's
>monthly report will show me as "breaking even". In fact, the opposite
>is true -- my net worth is decreasing at $1000 per month.
>
>You can even be misled into thinking that you are putting money away
>(for instance, if you sold $2000 of stock per month in the above
>example, in which case Money would indicate net monthly income
>"available for savings" of $1000), when in fact you are still burning
>cash.
>
>This is a mind-numbingly stupid and dangerous mistake.
>
>Anyone have any thoughts on a fix?

jgirard
Sun May 21 09:47:04 CDT 2006

I did check that -- it does actually show the total sale amount rather
than the gains..

arthur
Sun May 21 18:30:51 CDT 2006

I use ( montlhly ) account balances
Investment accounts show as cash and position values - separately

Granted the positon values are not 100% mark to market accurate but
close enough for my purposes ... measure change over time. It goes
to spreadsheets ... 1 page per year ... monthly columns.

arthur
==

On 20 May 2006 08:08:15 -0700, "jgirard@gmail.com" <jgirard@gmail.com>
wrote:

>I've found another area (most recent was a similar problem with the
>budget feature) where microsoft's Money team seems to ignore basic
>accounting rules, to the detriment of the user.
>

R
Mon May 22 19:54:44 CDT 2006

Yes, this is a mind-numbingly stupid mistake on MSFT's part.

But there is a complete fix - switch to Money 2002 which does not have the
problem. Money 2003 and all versions thereafter have this moronic bug but
MSFT refuses to fix it even though I complained vigorously as high up as I
could get.

Regards,

Bill Wood
Fountain Hills, AZ


<jgirard@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1148137695.707089.128190@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> I've found another area (most recent was a similar problem with the
> budget feature) where microsoft's Money team seems to ignore basic
> accounting rules, to the detriment of the user.
>
> Here's the issue.
>
> The monthly report aggregates data from all (open?) accounts (including
> investment accounts). If you happen to sell stock during the month you
> are reporting on, it shows up in the report as "income". This is
> improper, and misleading.
>
> Selling a stock does not create "income". It is merely converting an
> asset from one type (stock) to another type (cash) of equal value.
> When the net change in value is zero, there is no income.
>
> This is a problem because major financial problems could be masked.
>
> To take a simple example, if I have $3000 per month in salary income
> and $4000 in expenses, I have a $1000 per month deficit. If I elect to
> sell $1000 of stock per month to make up the difference, Money's
> monthly report will show me as "breaking even". In fact, the opposite
> is true -- my net worth is decreasing at $1000 per month.
>
> You can even be misled into thinking that you are putting money away
> (for instance, if you sold $2000 of stock per month in the above
> example, in which case Money would indicate net monthly income
> "available for savings" of $1000), when in fact you are still burning
> cash.
>
> This is a mind-numbingly stupid and dangerous mistake.
>
> Anyone have any thoughts on a fix?
>

arthur
Tue May 23 04:10:36 CDT 2006

Bill said, "NO"?
That bum.

I switched to Mny with M03 specifically cuz Q did not update option
prices so both are useless beyond fundamental score keeping. However
with all the portfolio web sites like yahoo, google, smartmoney. and
my broker, who needs more?

arthur
==
On Mon, 22 May 2006 17:54:44 -0700, "William R Wood" <secret@???.net>
wrote:
>problem. Money 2003 and all versions thereafter have this moronic bug but
>MSFT refuses to fix it even though I complained vigorously as high up as I
>could get.
>
>Regards,
>Bill Wood
>Fountain Hills, AZ

R
Wed May 24 10:52:54 CDT 2006


"arthur" <trash.all.spam@xoxy.net> wrote in message
news:7kj572p2561ao0e7bhkjra56a18afr7ksi@4ax.com...
> Bill said, "NO"?
> That bum.
>
> I switched to Mny with M03 specifically cuz Q did not update option
> prices so both are useless beyond fundamental score keeping. However
> with all the portfolio web sites like yahoo, google, smartmoney. and
> my broker, who needs more?
>
> arthur
> ==

It's not the portfolio tracking that I care about in Money, its the budget
reporting. As Girard pointed out Money calls the gross sale proceeds of a
security income. Not the net profit, the gross sale price. This is
idiotic. In budget reports, Money 2003 and newer versions report transfers
from the cash portion of investment accounts to the investment portion as
expense and transfers from the investment part to the cash part of
investment accounts as income. So every time you buy or sell any security,
Money says you have income or expense in the gross amount of the purchase or
sale and they put this inaccurate and completely misleading information in
your budget reports. So for example, if you by 100 shs of ABC company on
1/2/2006 for $100,000, your budget shows that you spent $100,000 as an
expense and you are now hugely over your annual budget. Moronic. The only
thing that actually happened was a transfer from cash to an investment of
equal value. Converting cash to a security of equal value is not an expense
and the sale of the same security is not income unless you actually made a
profit. I fought with several MSFT support pros high up on the support
ladder and they were unable to grasp this fundamental point. They sound
like they never went to college or even had a basic accounting class. They
certainly do not know how to use Money or handle investments. In any event
Money 2002 handles these transactions correctly and all reports are accurate
as well. Thus I am still using Money 2002 and intend to do so forever since
MSFT will never fix this bug.

Regards

Bill Wood

arthur
Wed May 24 20:10:31 CDT 2006

Well accounting knows only debits and credits and requires offsetting
ledger entries. Yes the idea that everything is either INCOME or
EXPENSE is lame. I thought that Transfers were Special and not Income
or Expense.

Bill Gates would never design something using big accounting concepts
like Debit and Credit. Hell No. We are the stupid public ... his
target customer. Maybe the small business MS stuff is smarter or
meant for smarter customers?

I see only Transfers To / From the investment acccount, and To / From
the investment Cash. Then if I moved cash to checking that would be
another Transfer. Transfers are marked as Special and not Income or
Expense.

Since I never use Budget I am not able to understand the problem.
Sorry.

arthur
==

On Wed, 24 May 2006 08:52:54 -0700, "William R Wood" <secret@???.net>
wrote:
>
>It's not the portfolio tracking that I care about in Money, its the budget
>reporting. As Girard pointed out Money calls the gross sale proceeds of a

Dick
Wed May 24 21:02:12 CDT 2006

Bill clearly doesn't participate in Money design. If the Money team used
these fancy accounting concepts directly, they'd get heckled by the
grandmothers and computerphobes in the usability lab and harassed in the
annual magazine reviews for the complexity and complication of the product.
I think their ideas about how to measure the quality of their design have
put them in a truly no-win situation.

"arthur" <trash.all.spam@xoxy.net> wrote in message
news:cu0a7214i6pt0isgitbkao9nv06ga6ek4q@4ax.com...
> Bill Gates would never design something using big accounting concepts
> like Debit and Credit. Hell No. We are the stupid public ... his
> target customer.

arthur
Thu May 25 01:14:40 CDT 2006

I though he either blessed or damned everything. Oh well. ;)
The basics of Acounting is actually easier than learning English IMO.
All you need to know is 3 things:

Debits and Credits ( if it aint one then it must be the other )
Which ledger to use. ( aka GAAP )

and when you are all finished,
Debits - Credits = Net Worth

Now, is that too complicated? ;)

arthur
==

On Wed, 24 May 2006 20:02:12 -0600, "Dick Watson"
<littlegreengecko@mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote:
>Bill clearly doesn't participate in Money design. If the Money team used
>these fancy accounting concepts directly, they'd get heckled by the
>grandmothers and computerphobes in the usability lab and harassed in the
>annual magazine reviews for the complexity and complication of the product.
>I think their ideas about how to measure the quality of their design have
>put them in a truly no-win situation.

R
Thu May 25 07:09:25 CDT 2006

Yes, investment account transfers are listed under Special in the budget
reports starting with Money 2003 but that remains an idiotic result.
Transfers between the cash portion and investment portion of an investment
account have no place in a budget report since they are neither income nor
expense and are not related to ordinary living expenses. The Special items
are always included in the totals for Income and Expense which makes your
budget reports inaccurate.

Since these transfers are included in the totals your budget reports are
useless if you trade frequently. Unless that is you are willing to study
each Special transaction and manually delete every investment account
transfer. MSFT excluded these transfers in version 2002 and prior, why they
included them thereafter is a mystery to me. They could resolve the problem
in version 2003 and later by giving users the option of excluding investment
acct transfers in budget reports but they refuse to do it.

Therefore I refuse to buy a newer version of Money. :)

Regards

Bill Wood



"arthur" <trash.all.spam@xoxy.net> wrote in message
news:cu0a7214i6pt0isgitbkao9nv06ga6ek4q@4ax.com...
> Well accounting knows only debits and credits and requires offsetting
> ledger entries. Yes the idea that everything is either INCOME or
> EXPENSE is lame. I thought that Transfers were Special and not Income
> or Expense.
>
> Bill Gates would never design something using big accounting concepts
> like Debit and Credit. Hell No. We are the stupid public ... his
> target customer. Maybe the small business MS stuff is smarter or
> meant for smarter customers?
>
> I see only Transfers To / From the investment acccount, and To / From
> the investment Cash. Then if I moved cash to checking that would be
> another Transfer. Transfers are marked as Special and not Income or
> Expense.
>
> Since I never use Budget I am not able to understand the problem.
> Sorry.
>
> arthur
> ==
>
> On Wed, 24 May 2006 08:52:54 -0700, "William R Wood" <secret@???.net>
> wrote:
>>
>>It's not the portfolio tracking that I care about in Money, its the budget
>>reporting. As Girard pointed out Money calls the gross sale proceeds of a

arthur
Thu May 25 17:47:51 CDT 2006

Thanks for the gooey stuff.

I use the month by acccount report and that is completely tailorable.
I assumed all were.

Not that it means anything, but I agree with you.
Have you looked at Acemoney? Might do it for you.

arthur
==

On Thu, 25 May 2006 05:09:25 -0700, "William R Wood" <secret@???.net>
wrote:
>Yes, investment account transfers are listed under Special in the budget
>reports starting with Money 2003 but that remains an idiotic result.
>Transfers between the cash portion and investment portion of an investment
>account have no place in a budget report since they are neither income nor
>expense and are not related to ordinary living expenses. The Special items
>are always included in the totals for Income and Expense which makes your
>budget reports inaccurate.
>
>Since these transfers are included in the totals your budget reports are
>useless if you trade frequently. Unless that is you are willing to study
>each Special transaction and manually delete every investment account
>transfer. MSFT excluded these transfers in version 2002 and prior, why they
>included them thereafter is a mystery to me. They could resolve the problem
>in version 2003 and later by giving users the option of excluding investment
>acct transfers in budget reports but they refuse to do it.
>
>Therefore I refuse to buy a newer version of Money. :)
>Regards
>Bill Wood

R
Thu May 25 19:39:24 CDT 2006

I looked at Acemoney's webpage. Since it is small and cheap I am guessing
that it lacks essential features that I use in Money. I went through a ton
of work attempting to use Moneydance but ultimately gave up. The truth is
that Money 2002 is very good and it does everything I need.

Have you used Acemoney? How is it?

Regards

Bill Wood


"arthur" <trash.all.spam@xoxy.net> wrote in message
news:22ac7212ld9nh6h9d72h307pb90v3t70oc@4ax.com...
> Thanks for the gooey stuff.
>
> I use the month by acccount report and that is completely tailorable.
> I assumed all were.
>
> Not that it means anything, but I agree with you.
> Have you looked at Acemoney? Might do it for you.
>
> arthur

arthur
Fri May 26 03:51:15 CDT 2006

No, haven't tried it.

Major disadvantage is it does not auto update accounts.
Logging into financial institutions would cost me personal time I am
not spending now. I don't really need personal finance enough to
justify my expending my time doing updates.

They say the financial server IP's are hidden but I could find them
with system tools but there is no code in Acemoney to talk to the
servers.

arthur
==

On Thu, 25 May 2006 17:39:24 -0700, "William R Wood" <secret@???.net>
wrote:
>I looked at Acemoney's webpage. Since it is small and cheap I am guessing
>that it lacks essential features that I use in Money. I went through a ton
>of work attempting to use Moneydance but ultimately gave up. The truth is
>that Money 2002 is very good and it does everything I need.
>
>Have you used Acemoney? How is it?
>
>Regards
>Bill Wood