Investment Income Calculations

I use M05 and am having errors in the reported income field for my
investments.

An example...
A fund has issued a long term capital gains distribution (LCG) and a short
term capital gains distribution (SCG). Both of these were reinvested. The LCG
was for $150 and the SCG was for $400. The income is being reported as
$1,100. It appears it is counting the distributions and reinvestments as
income. Shouldn't just the distributions be totaled so the income should
report $550. Also the price appreciation is showing as $900. Thus the gain is
now reporting as $2,000. This is not right at all. Shouldn't the gain only be
$1,450.

Please someone help with this problem.

via_newsgroup
Sun Jan 22 14:56:42 CST 2006

In microsoft.public.money, Lance wrote:

>I use M05 and am having errors in the reported income field for my
>investments.
>
>An example...
>A fund has issued a long term capital gains distribution (LCG) and a short
>term capital gains distribution (SCG). Both of these were reinvested. The LCG
>was for $150 and the SCG was for $400. The income is being reported as
>$1,100.

Reported where?


> It appears it is counting the distributions and reinvestments as
>income. Shouldn't just the distributions be totaled so the income should
>report $550. Also the price appreciation is showing as $900. Thus the gain is
>now reporting as $2,000. This is not right at all. Shouldn't the gain only be
>$1,450.

Ron
Sun Jan 22 15:10:46 CST 2006

On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 12:32:02 -0800, "Lance" <Lance@discussions.microsoft.com>
wrote:

>I use M05 and am having errors in the reported income field for my
>investments.
>
>An example...
>A fund has issued a long term capital gains distribution (LCG) and a short
>term capital gains distribution (SCG). Both of these were reinvested. The LCG
>was for $150 and the SCG was for $400. The income is being reported as
>$1,100. It appears it is counting the distributions and reinvestments as
>income. Shouldn't just the distributions be totaled so the income should
>report $550. Also the price appreciation is showing as $900. Thus the gain is
>now reporting as $2,000. This is not right at all. Shouldn't the gain only be
>$1,450.
>
>Please someone help with this problem.

I assume you are asking about the report the Reports Gallery. In Money 2003,
the "Income" field (which only comes up if I select to "show all
calculations"), is not restricted to just the date range for the report.

For example, I just generated a performance report for 2005 (Previous year) and
looked at a mutual fund which I have held since 2001. Even though the dates on
the report on 1/1/2005 to 12/31/2005; the total in the income field is for all
CG and Dividend transactions since 2001!

If I recall correctly, this started being a problem in M2000. I complained
about it at that time, and subsequently. If that is what you've run in to,
then it's an indication of the importance MS assigns to this "feature".


--ron

Lance
Sun Jan 22 16:31:03 CST 2006

Thanks for your responses guys.

The problem is in the portfolio manager and the view is Valuation. Like I
said it is totaling the distributions and reinvestments. How do I correct
this? Or is this a MS thing.

Also, my problem is not an issue with the year (or years) because this is
one for only 2005 (opened the account in June 05) and nothing has posted in
January. So I am confident it is not an issue with the year.

"Lance" wrote:

> I use M05 and am having errors in the reported income field for my
> investments.
>
> An example...
> A fund has issued a long term capital gains distribution (LCG) and a short
> term capital gains distribution (SCG). Both of these were reinvested. The LCG
> was for $150 and the SCG was for $400. The income is being reported as
> $1,100. It appears it is counting the distributions and reinvestments as
> income. Shouldn't just the distributions be totaled so the income should
> report $550. Also the price appreciation is showing as $900. Thus the gain is
> now reporting as $2,000. This is not right at all. Shouldn't the gain only be
> $1,450.
>
> Please someone help with this problem.

Ron
Sun Jan 22 19:11:26 CST 2006

If your "investment activities" is showing both a Distribution and a
Reinvestment as separate entries, then you have effectively entered the
distribution twice. So it's being counted twice.

If you want to show the distribution separately, then the "reinvestment" should
be entered as a "buy" for the same amount.

So, either show the event as two transactions -- a distribution (with the
proper associated cash account) followed by a buy for the same amount; OR just
show a single transaction as a "reinvest LT gain" or whatever.



On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 14:31:03 -0800, "Lance" <Lance@discussions.microsoft.com>
wrote:

>Thanks for your responses guys.
>
>The problem is in the portfolio manager and the view is Valuation. Like I
>said it is totaling the distributions and reinvestments. How do I correct
>this? Or is this a MS thing.
>
>Also, my problem is not an issue with the year (or years) because this is
>one for only 2005 (opened the account in June 05) and nothing has posted in
>January. So I am confident it is not an issue with the year.
>
>"Lance" wrote:
>
>> I use M05 and am having errors in the reported income field for my
>> investments.
>>
>> An example...
>> A fund has issued a long term capital gains distribution (LCG) and a short
>> term capital gains distribution (SCG). Both of these were reinvested. The LCG
>> was for $150 and the SCG was for $400. The income is being reported as
>> $1,100. It appears it is counting the distributions and reinvestments as
>> income. Shouldn't just the distributions be totaled so the income should
>> report $550. Also the price appreciation is showing as $900. Thus the gain is
>> now reporting as $2,000. This is not right at all. Shouldn't the gain only be
>> $1,450.
>>
>> Please someone help with this problem.

--ron

Lance
Sun Jan 22 21:06:03 CST 2006

How would I enter it as a single transaction. First It appears in my cash
account as a distribution and then it is taken out as a reinvestment. The
only way I can think of only showing it once is if I didn't have a cash
account. I do use a cash account. If I just showed the reinvestment it would
make my cash account go negative.

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote:

> If your "investment activities" is showing both a Distribution and a
> Reinvestment as separate entries, then you have effectively entered the
> distribution twice. So it's being counted twice.
>
> If you want to show the distribution separately, then the "reinvestment" should
> be entered as a "buy" for the same amount.
>
> So, either show the event as two transactions -- a distribution (with the
> proper associated cash account) followed by a buy for the same amount; OR just
> show a single transaction as a "reinvest LT gain" or whatever.
>
>
>
> On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 14:31:03 -0800, "Lance" <Lance@discussions.microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Thanks for your responses guys.
> >
> >The problem is in the portfolio manager and the view is Valuation. Like I
> >said it is totaling the distributions and reinvestments. How do I correct
> >this? Or is this a MS thing.
> >
> >Also, my problem is not an issue with the year (or years) because this is
> >one for only 2005 (opened the account in June 05) and nothing has posted in
> >January. So I am confident it is not an issue with the year.
> >
> >"Lance" wrote:
> >
> >> I use M05 and am having errors in the reported income field for my
> >> investments.
> >>
> >> An example...
> >> A fund has issued a long term capital gains distribution (LCG) and a short
> >> term capital gains distribution (SCG). Both of these were reinvested. The LCG
> >> was for $150 and the SCG was for $400. The income is being reported as
> >> $1,100. It appears it is counting the distributions and reinvestments as
> >> income. Shouldn't just the distributions be totaled so the income should
> >> report $550. Also the price appreciation is showing as $900. Thus the gain is
> >> now reporting as $2,000. This is not right at all. Shouldn't the gain only be
> >> $1,450.
> >>
> >> Please someone help with this problem.
>
> --ron
>

Ron
Sun Jan 22 22:10:14 CST 2006

On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 19:06:03 -0800, "Lance" <Lance@discussions.microsoft.com>
wrote:

>How would I enter it as a single transaction. First It appears in my cash
>account as a distribution and then it is taken out as a reinvestment. The
>only way I can think of only showing it once is if I didn't have a cash
>account. I do use a cash account. If I just showed the reinvestment it would
>make my cash account go negative.

Huh? I guess there's been a change in M2005, then. In M2003, when I select
one of the Reinvestment options on the Investment Transaction form, there is no
cash account. It doesn't make sense to me that they should have changed that
in M2005, unless they are entering a double transaction in the cash account
somehow when you enter a reinvestment transaction.

However, since your Reinvestment transaction is affecting your cash account, I
would advise you to show the distribution and Buy separately.

That would seem to be a new bug, based on the method that Reinvestment
transactions have been handled in the past.

Is it possible you are mistaken about this?


--ron

Ron
Sun Jan 22 22:18:11 CST 2006

On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 23:10:14 -0500, Ron Rosenfeld <ronrosenfeld@nospam.org>
wrote:

>On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 19:06:03 -0800, "Lance" <Lance@discussions.microsoft.com>
>wrote:
>
>>How would I enter it as a single transaction. First It appears in my cash
>>account as a distribution and then it is taken out as a reinvestment. The
>>only way I can think of only showing it once is if I didn't have a cash
>>account. I do use a cash account. If I just showed the reinvestment it would
>>make my cash account go negative.
>
>Huh? I guess there's been a change in M2005, then. In M2003, when I select
>one of the Reinvestment options on the Investment Transaction form, there is no
>cash account. It doesn't make sense to me that they should have changed that
>in M2005, unless they are entering a double transaction in the cash account
>somehow when you enter a reinvestment transaction.
>
>However, since your Reinvestment transaction is affecting your cash account, I
>would advise you to show the distribution and Buy separately.
>
>That would seem to be a new bug, based on the method that Reinvestment
>transactions have been handled in the past.
>
>Is it possible you are mistaken about this?
>
>
>--ron

By the way, I show all of these transactions as Reinvestments in my file; and
I've done so for years. When the transactions get downloaded from Fidelity,
they come through as a Distribution and a Buy; but, like you, I prefer to show
it as a single "reinvestment" transaction, so I edit them. I'm going to be
really upset if this doesn't work in the later versions of Money, when I'm
forced to change.


--ron

Dick
Sun Jan 22 23:17:14 CST 2006

It sounds like your downloaded data is doing you in.

Reinvest Dividend as a Money transaction is functionally the same thing as
two transactions (Dividend with transfer to the cash account and Buy from
the cash account) but without the cash account involved. If two entries are
showing up in the Investment account and one of them is a Reinvest Dividend,
then you are hosed. If you just show a Reinvest Dividend in the Investment
Account, the Cash Account won't go negative. It won't change at all. If you
have a Dividend and a Reinvest Dividend, then you will have twice the
income, extra cash in the cash account, and extra shares in the investment
account.

"Lance" <Lance@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:791A7BE8-74C3-4875-A01E-730554418F76@microsoft.com...
> How would I enter it as a single transaction. First It appears in my cash
> account as a distribution and then it is taken out as a reinvestment.

Chris
Sun Jan 22 23:46:49 CST 2006

"Ron Rosenfeld" <ronrosenfeld@nospam.org> wrote in message
news:f4m8t1hukdc7n6pcfi14p1qdqnj4ivv0la@4ax.com...
>
> By the way, I show all of these transactions as Reinvestments in my file;
> and
> I've done so for years. When the transactions get downloaded from
> Fidelity,
> they come through as a Distribution and a Buy; but, like you, I prefer to
> show
> it as a single "reinvestment" transaction, so I edit them. I'm going to
> be
> really upset if this doesn't work in the later versions of Money, when I'm
> forced to change.

It works fine in M06. It's a matter of either/or. Either you record it as 2
transaction, dividend and buy, or as 1 transaction, reinvest dividend.

I prefer to show it as my broker does on my statements. If the downloaded
transaction differs in structure from the statement, I revise to match the
statement.

Ron
Mon Jan 23 07:06:26 CST 2006

On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 22:17:14 -0700, "Dick Watson"
<littlegreengecko@mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote:

>It sounds like your downloaded data is doing you in.
>
>Reinvest Dividend as a Money transaction is functionally the same thing as
>two transactions (Dividend with transfer to the cash account and Buy from
>the cash account) but without the cash account involved. If two entries are
>showing up in the Investment account and one of them is a Reinvest Dividend,
>then you are hosed. If you just show a Reinvest Dividend in the Investment
>Account, the Cash Account won't go negative. It won't change at all. If you
>have a Dividend and a Reinvest Dividend, then you will have twice the
>income, extra cash in the cash account, and extra shares in the investment
>account.
>
>"Lance" <Lance@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
>news:791A7BE8-74C3-4875-A01E-730554418F76@microsoft.com...
>> How would I enter it as a single transaction. First It appears in my cash
>> account as a distribution and then it is taken out as a reinvestment.
>

Chris & Dick,

Thanks for letting me know that MS did not mess this up in the later versions,
as the OP seems to be under a misapprehension regarding this feature.


--ron

Lance
Mon Jan 23 21:21:02 CST 2006

Thanks for the help everyone. With your help I was able to figure it out. As
you indicated the downloads were doing me in. In effect it would add and then
subtract in the cash account (distribution then reinvestment) and also put a
reinvestment in the investment account. To solve my problem I deleted the
distribution and reinvestment from the cash account, leaving the reinvestment
in the investment account, and everything balanced appropriately.

Ron, sorry for scaring you.

Now to work on 401k's that do not show me investments. I just get investment
type balances. It is always something with money. ; )

Lance

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote:

> On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 22:17:14 -0700, "Dick Watson"
> <littlegreengecko@mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote:
>
> >It sounds like your downloaded data is doing you in.
> >
> >Reinvest Dividend as a Money transaction is functionally the same thing as
> >two transactions (Dividend with transfer to the cash account and Buy from
> >the cash account) but without the cash account involved. If two entries are
> >showing up in the Investment account and one of them is a Reinvest Dividend,
> >then you are hosed. If you just show a Reinvest Dividend in the Investment
> >Account, the Cash Account won't go negative. It won't change at all. If you
> >have a Dividend and a Reinvest Dividend, then you will have twice the
> >income, extra cash in the cash account, and extra shares in the investment
> >account.
> >
> >"Lance" <Lance@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> >news:791A7BE8-74C3-4875-A01E-730554418F76@microsoft.com...
> >> How would I enter it as a single transaction. First It appears in my cash
> >> account as a distribution and then it is taken out as a reinvestment.
> >
>
> Chris & Dick,
>
> Thanks for letting me know that MS did not mess this up in the later versions,
> as the OP seems to be under a misapprehension regarding this feature.
>
>
> --ron
>

Ron
Mon Jan 23 22:13:52 CST 2006

On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 19:21:02 -0800, "Lance" <Lance@discussions.microsoft.com>
wrote:

>Thanks for the help everyone. With your help I was able to figure it out. As
>you indicated the downloads were doing me in. In effect it would add and then
>subtract in the cash account (distribution then reinvestment) and also put a
>reinvestment in the investment account. To solve my problem I deleted the
>distribution and reinvestment from the cash account, leaving the reinvestment
>in the investment account, and everything balanced appropriately.
>
>Ron, sorry for scaring you.

I'm glad you got it worked out.

>
>Now to work on 401k's that do not show me investments. I just get investment
>type balances. It is always something with money. ; )

Hopefully in continually increasing amounts!!
--ron

Borty
Fri Apr 21 21:45:01 CDT 2006

The problem you noted for Money 2003 (ie. that the "Income" field produced in
the Reports Gallery is not restricted to the date range of the report) is a
problem I am currently experiencing with Money 2004. Thus, if I restrict the
date range for the last financial year (ending 31 March 2006 in New Zealand),
the income shown for each investment is the total income received since the
investment was first made. Strangely, if double click on the amount of
income shown for an investment, a window opens showing the correct individual
income amounts received during the year, which of course do not sum to value
shown in the report. I am thinking of upgrading to Money 2006 but am
wondering if this problem has been remedied?
--
Borty


"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote:

> On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 12:32:02 -0800, "Lance" <Lance@discussions.microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
> >I use M05 and am having errors in the reported income field for my
> >investments.
> >
> >An example...
> >A fund has issued a long term capital gains distribution (LCG) and a short
> >term capital gains distribution (SCG). Both of these were reinvested. The LCG
> >was for $150 and the SCG was for $400. The income is being reported as
> >$1,100. It appears it is counting the distributions and reinvestments as
> >income. Shouldn't just the distributions be totaled so the income should
> >report $550. Also the price appreciation is showing as $900. Thus the gain is
> >now reporting as $2,000. This is not right at all. Shouldn't the gain only be
> >$1,450.
> >
> >Please someone help with this problem.
>
> I assume you are asking about the report the Reports Gallery. In Money 2003,
> the "Income" field (which only comes up if I select to "show all
> calculations"), is not restricted to just the date range for the report.
>
> For example, I just generated a performance report for 2005 (Previous year) and
> looked at a mutual fund which I have held since 2001. Even though the dates on
> the report on 1/1/2005 to 12/31/2005; the total in the income field is for all
> CG and Dividend transactions since 2001!
>
> If I recall correctly, this started being a problem in M2000. I complained
> about it at that time, and subsequently. If that is what you've run in to,
> then it's an indication of the importance MS assigns to this "feature".
>
>
> --ron
>