Happy M05 User - Member of the silent majority

OK - I'm getting a little tired of everyone saying what a piece of ad-laden
crap Money 2005 is. I'm not a MS shill, but I consider my experience
relatively common. I use M05 Deluxe, without a Passport, MSN or Yodlee
link, to do the following:

1 - Track balances and transactions for several bank, credit card, loan and
investment accounts.
2 - Enter transactions by hand as they occur
3 - Download transactions from any direct (non-Yodlee) institutions for
verification that I'm not missing anything obvious
4 - Pay bills through my bank and their bill pay service.
5 - Update prices for 529 fund shares that aren't automatically downloaded
6 - Cash Flow Management
7 - Budget Management
8 - Sync to PPC

Now, here's my experience:

My home page is set to the Account List - no ads there...

I add any transactions by hand in the various account registers - no ads
there...

I download transactions daily, and wait for the updates to finish, then go
to the account registers - again no ads there...

I go to the Bills Summary page to pay bills - no ads there... (if you count
the single link to "Learn more about MSN Bill Pay" as an ad, then, fine -
but, frankly, I know what I'm doing on this page, and I've never noticed
it - found it doing research for this post - far less obtrusive than
anything worth flaming a nearly free program about)

I go to the Portfolio Manager page - no ads there (again, except for a
couple of links on the left). Now, the way I see it, if you're using Money
to do serious investment research, then the links are reasonable, and point
you to live web-based info. If you're NOT using Money to do serious
investment research (this is my case - I can't imagine using what amounts to
freeware to drive investment decisions), then, as in the case above, the
links on the left are very unobtrusive if you use the software primarily to
manage your accounts.

Investment Registers, no ads... Cash Manager, no ads ... Budget Manager, no
ads... PPC, no ads... and so on.

It's pretty clear where the web content is, especially for folks who are
veteran Money users. If you're primarily complaining about tiny (and
obvious) links or ads on pages that are INTENDED TO PROVIDE ADVICE which is
likely to come from external sources, then I think you're being
disingenuous.

OK - off the soapbox - the Yodlee thing is a complete hack, but, even there,
it isn't Yodlee itself, which is insanely useful as an aggregator, it's the
tie to MSN that is the true hack. If they would have treated Yodlee as just
another institution, and just pulled transactions locally to your local
machine without MSN being involved, I think many of the M05 haters would be
cheering loudly.

Yes there are many annoying problems that have been around since M98, but
the program is essentially free, and the market price download service
itself pays for the software.

In summary - should we demand everything MS promises? Absolutely. Is M05
the devil spawn? Not in the slightest. Don't use a Passport, treat it as
the data aggregating tool that it is, and you'll be happy with it. If you
expect it to be a CPA, tax adviser and lawyer, and provide you with
broker-level investment advice (if that isn't, in itself, an oxymoron),
then, since those are VALUE-ADDED features expect at least to see ads for
them, or actually even (gasp) pay more for them. Since I don't expect those
features from a (mostly) free program, I never see an obtrusive ad. Never.

I know everyone will flame, but that's fine. There are the normal problems
associated with every new release of any software (installation,
configuration, etc), but really - it performs its core functions, and is a
real value as well. Remember, the content of these forums form a self
selecting population. Hopefully, this provides some much-needed context.

- John

Scott
Sun Feb 20 11:53:02 CST 2005

On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 11:30:21 -0600, John DeMastri wrote:

> From: "John DeMastri" <john@demastri.dot.com>
>
> OK - I'm getting a little tired of everyone saying what a piece of ad-laden
> crap Money 2005 is. I'm not a MS shill, but I consider my experience
> relatively common. I use M05 Deluxe, without a Passport, MSN or Yodlee
> link, to do the following:
>
> 1 - Track balances and transactions for several bank, credit card, loan and
> investment accounts.
> 2 - Enter transactions by hand as they occur
> 3 - Download transactions from any direct (non-Yodlee) institutions for

I keep reading about Yodlee. Would someone tell us what Yodlee is.
Also, why not use Passport(see above)?

Dick
Sun Feb 20 12:36:08 CST 2005

See http://umpmfaq.info/faqdb.php?q=171 for one take on Yodlee. Also bear in
mind, John probably considers a cheerleader for the noisy majority.

"Scott" <midnight@hausdave.yi.org> wrote in message
news:y4jglves6ugr.x0qogs1wmts5.dlg@40tude.net...
> I keep reading about Yodlee. Would someone tell us what Yodlee is.

Dick
Sun Feb 20 12:39:42 CST 2005

Ooops. ...noisy minority.

"Dick Watson" <littlegreengecko@mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote in
message news:O0AIGs3FFHA.1924@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
> See http://umpmfaq.info/faqdb.php?q=171 for one take on Yodlee. Also bear
> in mind, John probably considers a cheerleader for the noisy majority.
>
> "Scott" <midnight@hausdave.yi.org> wrote in message
> news:y4jglves6ugr.x0qogs1wmts5.dlg@40tude.net...
>> I keep reading about Yodlee. Would someone tell us what Yodlee is.
>
>

Dick
Sun Feb 20 13:12:51 CST 2005

Ooops. John probably considers me a cheerleader for the noisy minority.

I wish my head cold would go away.

"Dick Watson" <littlegreengecko@mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote in
message news:OylJFu3FFHA.3732@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> Ooops. ...noisy minority.
>
> "Dick Watson" <littlegreengecko@mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote in
> message news:O0AIGs3FFHA.1924@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>> See http://umpmfaq.info/faqdb.php?q=171 for one take on Yodlee. Also bear
>> in mind, John probably considers a cheerleader for the noisy majority.
>>
>> "Scott" <midnight@hausdave.yi.org> wrote in message
>> news:y4jglves6ugr.x0qogs1wmts5.dlg@40tude.net...
>>> I keep reading about Yodlee. Would someone tell us what Yodlee is.
>>
>>
>
>

Rick
Sun Feb 20 18:37:24 CST 2005

FYI: I purchased M05 Small Business and it cost me $90, hardly free. But so
far, I don't have any complaints, just like you.

--
Rick Faria - MCSE / A+
RDF Technical Services - www.rdfts.com
Email: support at rdfts dot com


"John DeMastri" <john@demastri.dot.com> wrote in message
news:u7r7bH3FFHA.936@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> OK - I'm getting a little tired of everyone saying what a piece of
> ad-laden crap Money 2005 is. I'm not a MS shill, but I consider my
> experience relatively common. I use M05 Deluxe, without a Passport, MSN
> or Yodlee link, to do the following:
>
> 1 - Track balances and transactions for several bank, credit card, loan
> and investment accounts.
> 2 - Enter transactions by hand as they occur
> 3 - Download transactions from any direct (non-Yodlee) institutions for
> verification that I'm not missing anything obvious
> 4 - Pay bills through my bank and their bill pay service.
> 5 - Update prices for 529 fund shares that aren't automatically downloaded
> 6 - Cash Flow Management
> 7 - Budget Management
> 8 - Sync to PPC
>
> Now, here's my experience:
>
> My home page is set to the Account List - no ads there...
>
> I add any transactions by hand in the various account registers - no ads
> there...
>
> I download transactions daily, and wait for the updates to finish, then go
> to the account registers - again no ads there...
>
> I go to the Bills Summary page to pay bills - no ads there... (if you
> count the single link to "Learn more about MSN Bill Pay" as an ad, then,
> fine - but, frankly, I know what I'm doing on this page, and I've never
> noticed it - found it doing research for this post - far less obtrusive
> than anything worth flaming a nearly free program about)
>
> I go to the Portfolio Manager page - no ads there (again, except for a
> couple of links on the left). Now, the way I see it, if you're using
> Money to do serious investment research, then the links are reasonable,
> and point you to live web-based info. If you're NOT using Money to do
> serious investment research (this is my case - I can't imagine using what
> amounts to freeware to drive investment decisions), then, as in the case
> above, the links on the left are very unobtrusive if you use the software
> primarily to manage your accounts.
>
> Investment Registers, no ads... Cash Manager, no ads ... Budget Manager,
> no ads... PPC, no ads... and so on.
>
> It's pretty clear where the web content is, especially for folks who are
> veteran Money users. If you're primarily complaining about tiny (and
> obvious) links or ads on pages that are INTENDED TO PROVIDE ADVICE which
> is likely to come from external sources, then I think you're being
> disingenuous.
>
> OK - off the soapbox - the Yodlee thing is a complete hack, but, even
> there, it isn't Yodlee itself, which is insanely useful as an aggregator,
> it's the tie to MSN that is the true hack. If they would have treated
> Yodlee as just another institution, and just pulled transactions locally
> to your local machine without MSN being involved, I think many of the M05
> haters would be cheering loudly.
>
> Yes there are many annoying problems that have been around since M98, but
> the program is essentially free, and the market price download service
> itself pays for the software.
>
> In summary - should we demand everything MS promises? Absolutely. Is M05
> the devil spawn? Not in the slightest. Don't use a Passport, treat it as
> the data aggregating tool that it is, and you'll be happy with it. If you
> expect it to be a CPA, tax adviser and lawyer, and provide you with
> broker-level investment advice (if that isn't, in itself, an oxymoron),
> then, since those are VALUE-ADDED features expect at least to see ads for
> them, or actually even (gasp) pay more for them. Since I don't expect
> those features from a (mostly) free program, I never see an obtrusive ad.
> Never.
>
> I know everyone will flame, but that's fine. There are the normal
> problems associated with every new release of any software (installation,
> configuration, etc), but really - it performs its core functions, and is a
> real value as well. Remember, the content of these forums form a self
> selecting population. Hopefully, this provides some much-needed context.
>
> - John
>
>

Dick
Sun Feb 20 19:06:57 CST 2005

I'm sure you probably consider me a cheerleader of the vocal minority. I
accept that. And I agree with a lot of what you write--M05 provides some
useful tools and is certainly cheap. Of course, the exact same thing could
have been said about M04 and M04 worked as well or better for, I dare say,
the majority of users. M05 provides me no absolutely new capability of any
consequence--save maybe the Yodlee stuff, FWIW, which I will not use--and
mostly just did things like mangle my categories. I think if you read my
posted rant, you will find that I didn't have any particular defect-centered
issues with M05 and my issues with it are focused on the direction the
product is taking.

I'm also on record here, and will say again, ads in M05 are not the problem.
(My posted page acknowledges that "After two weeks I had generally learned
how to avoid all of the intermingled MSN content and the ads, but not
entirely.") They're a symptom of a business model that doesn't work: selling
consumer application software, and Microsoft's solution: turn the thing into
a "content model" where the goal is to attract, using just about any cheese
that works, eyeballs and mouse clicks for the benefit of the real paying
customers.

But I'm at a loss why calling an ad an ad is disingenuous. I use the thing
every day. My screen is cluttered enough without a daily glance at a link to
advise, if you insist, how I can get a great deal on a home equity loan. You
emphasize what a value Money is and it's surely true--I get far more than
$24 worth of utility out of M04 and would happily have paid more--especially
if they did ANYTHING over time to make the product better suited to me.
Money hasn't done this for me since maybe as far back as M99. (M02 had the
scheduled transaction rewrite. I like the ability to edit more than the next
transaction. I don't like all of the restrictions that prevent scheduling
items that can be entered. Net: only slightly positive.) I'd also gladly pay
for my support calls. But Microsoft has decided--probably correctly so--that
very few home users will and so they've gone off to find new customers for
the product: the advertisers.

Were you a happy M04 user? Do you feel that M05 provides extra value to you
**when compared to M04?**

Are you eagerly awaiting a future Money where all you get is a web site and
Essential * and your data stored on their web servers?

I hope you don't think this is flaming you. It certainly isn't intended to.

John
Mon Feb 21 16:50:01 CST 2005

No - I love everything you do here to help me and everyone else. I needed
to rant a little - when I do need help, I hope you're here :)

- John

"Dick Watson" <littlegreengecko@mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote in
message news:eM4%23mA4FFHA.2180@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> Ooops. John probably considers me a cheerleader for the noisy minority.
>
> I wish my head cold would go away.
>
> "Dick Watson" <littlegreengecko@mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote in
> message news:OylJFu3FFHA.3732@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
>> Ooops. ...noisy minority.
>>
>> "Dick Watson" <littlegreengecko@mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote in
>> message news:O0AIGs3FFHA.1924@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>> See http://umpmfaq.info/faqdb.php?q=171 for one take on Yodlee. Also
>>> bear in mind, John probably considers a cheerleader for the noisy
>>> majority.
>>>
>>> "Scott" <midnight@hausdave.yi.org> wrote in message
>>> news:y4jglves6ugr.x0qogs1wmts5.dlg@40tude.net...
>>>> I keep reading about Yodlee. Would someone tell us what Yodlee is.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

John
Mon Feb 21 17:13:14 CST 2005

Not taken as a flame. Glad mine wasn't taken in too hostile a manner,
either :)

I was a happy 04 (and prior) user, and the primary benefit I see to the
upgrade is the extension in online services. In my day-to-day use of the
app, there's very little delta between the versions. As an aside, I will
never let MSN servers have my data.

You've made the accurate point that MS is trying to monetize the Money
product by advertising, primarily within advice pages. The use of the word
disingenuous is somewhat subjective, but in my normal use of the app, I
don't see any big, banner style ads, and there are several menu items / link
ads that I don't use, and they literally are invisible to me because I don't
meed their functionality. If a line of text is truly invasive for you,
then, fine, I accept that and we can agree to disagree about this.

I agree that their business model is flawed, but I don't see how MS can
generate enough revenue to keep the product afloat long term since they
practically give it away, either for new development or bug fixes. The
simplest sustainable revenue stream is ad-based, unless they kill all the
rebates, and it's been discussed here before - ain't nobody paying retail
for this product as it stands. So - it ends up being like Google - an
essentially free, but ad supported, service. Likely a basic, machine based
app, with "premium" services requiring web integration. I hope you're wrong
about there ever being a web-only version, because, as this forum clearly
shows, there is a market for a relatively stable stand-alone app in this
market. I can't believe MS would pull the plug completely on that customer
base. You forget - they view MSN integration as a PLUS, as they would a
web-only version, since distribution costs go to zero!! After this
disastrous launch, with most issues MSN/Yodlee related, one can only hope
that someone's rethinking that strategy.

I, too, would prefer a complete, finished app to the workarounds we need to
use for many things. Even integration to existing Yodlee accounts, without
involving MS servers would be a big win. We probably agree more than we
disagree about the app in general, but my point, that it's a reasonable app,
and a good value, seems still ok.

Thanks (as always) for a thoughtful reply - John

"Dick Watson" <littlegreengecko@mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote in
message news:OjGHUG7FFHA.1456@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> I'm sure you probably consider me a cheerleader of the vocal minority. I
> accept that. And I agree with a lot of what you write--M05 provides some
> useful tools and is certainly cheap. Of course, the exact same thing could
> have been said about M04 and M04 worked as well or better for, I dare say,
> the majority of users. M05 provides me no absolutely new capability of any
> consequence--save maybe the Yodlee stuff, FWIW, which I will not use--and
> mostly just did things like mangle my categories. I think if you read my
> posted rant, you will find that I didn't have any particular
> defect-centered issues with M05 and my issues with it are focused on the
> direction the
> product is taking.
>
> I'm also on record here, and will say again, ads in M05 are not the
> problem.
> (My posted page acknowledges that "After two weeks I had generally learned
> how to avoid all of the intermingled MSN content and the ads, but not
> entirely.") They're a symptom of a business model that doesn't work:
> selling
> consumer application software, and Microsoft's solution: turn the thing
> into
> a "content model" where the goal is to attract, using just about any
> cheese
> that works, eyeballs and mouse clicks for the benefit of the real paying
> customers.
>
> But I'm at a loss why calling an ad an ad is disingenuous. I use the thing
> every day. My screen is cluttered enough without a daily glance at a link
> to
> advise, if you insist, how I can get a great deal on a home equity loan.
> You
> emphasize what a value Money is and it's surely true--I get far more than
> $24 worth of utility out of M04 and would happily have paid
> more--especially
> if they did ANYTHING over time to make the product better suited to me.
> Money hasn't done this for me since maybe as far back as M99. (M02 had the
> scheduled transaction rewrite. I like the ability to edit more than the
> next
> transaction. I don't like all of the restrictions that prevent scheduling
> items that can be entered. Net: only slightly positive.) I'd also gladly
> pay
> for my support calls. But Microsoft has decided--probably correctly
> so--that
> very few home users will and so they've gone off to find new customers for
> the product: the advertisers.
>
> Were you a happy M04 user? Do you feel that M05 provides extra value to
> you
> **when compared to M04?**
>
> Are you eagerly awaiting a future Money where all you get is a web site
> and
> Essential * and your data stored on their web servers?
>
> I hope you don't think this is flaming you. It certainly isn't intended
> to.
>

Dick
Mon Feb 21 19:40:13 CST 2005

Several comments in redacted-for-size text.

"John DeMastri" <john@demastri.dot.com> wrote in message
news:OX6LurGGFHA.2932@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
> I agree that their business model is flawed, but I don't see how MS can
> generate enough revenue to keep the product afloat long term since they
> practically give it away, either for new development or bug fixes.
...
> I hope you're wrong about there ever being a web-only version, because, as
> this forum clearly shows, there is a market for a relatively stable
> stand-alone app in this market. I can't believe MS would pull the plug
> completely on that customer base.

I hope I'm wrong too, but I think you just made the case why they will. I'd
bet they haven't made dime 1 on Money to date. At some point, even Microsoft
will give up throwing money down that rathole.

> You forget - they view MSN integration as a PLUS, as they would a web-only
> version, since distribution costs go to zero!!

Exactly. So they will add features exclusively to MSN Money (what's Russ
P-Js title? What product group at Micrsosoft is Money the application
assigned to?) to wean us from the standalone version.

> After this disastrous launch, with most issues MSN/Yodlee related, one can
> only hope that someone's rethinking that strategy.

Many things about this launch will, from their PoV, confirm the strategy. If
the data was stored on their machines and we had nothing but a browser on
ours, just imagine how much easier/cheaper it would have been for them to
solve all of the mess they created by shipping M05 before it was done. One
or two uploads to the server and all would have been well. They'll be taking
support calls stemming from the two M05 file formats until the last RTM CD
disintegrates.

> We probably agree more than we disagree about the app in general, but my
> point, that it's a reasonable app, and a good value, seems still ok.

Absolutely: but the same exact thing could have been said about M04 and yet
they asked us to get in line with our $25 to get M05 despite it adding
essentially nothing of value to existing users (arguably besides Yodlee),
subtracting some things of value, mangling existing categories silently,
having the more cluttered and bizarre UI, adding ever more ad vectors,
trying to blend in the ones that were there (the no butterfly pointer), etc.
M04 remains a much better value than M05 from my PoV and that makes it seem
like it's going the wrong way.