Dual-Cat Reg Key

Looks like the update is arriving.

For those with the current update of M05 wanting to restore dual-cat combos,
here is the registry key:

[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Money\14.0]
"UseDualCatMode"=dword:00000001

Personally, I'm not sure what to do. I've been spending years trying to get
used to single-cat, and I still don't like it as much as dual-cat. I think
I'll honor the team by using this switch.

-Russ Paul-Jones
MSN Money

Jack
Thu Nov 18 17:21:04 CST 2004

For those of us who are not the greatest with messing with the registry can
you give a more detailed way of entering this? I tried to enter a new key
and it makes a new folder.

Thanks

via_newsgroup
Thu Nov 18 17:28:16 CST 2004

In microsoft.public.money, Jack wrote:

>For those of us who are not the greatest with messing with the registry can
>you give a more detailed way of entering this? I tried to enter a new key
>and it makes a new folder.

If you copy the four lines between the begin/end lines below
into a file called 2cat.reg, you can double-click 2cat.reg in
Windows Explorer create the key.

==========begin:2cat.reg===============
REGEDIT4

[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Money\14.0]
"UseDualCatMode"=dword:00000001
==============end:2cat.reg=============

Russ
Thu Nov 18 17:30:59 CST 2004

The regedit command is to create a new DWORD value.

Or, Merging this file may work.

(I hope that I haven't violated newsgroup etiquette with a small attachment.
I probably have violated some Microsoft policy. No warranty etc etc.)

-Russ Paul-Jones
MSN Money

"Jack" <Jack@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:CBE10E8D-C818-415D-8CEE-524EC189D6CF@microsoft.com...
> For those of us who are not the greatest with messing with the registry
> can
> you give a more detailed way of entering this? I tried to enter a new key
> and it makes a new folder.
>
> Thanks
>


begin 666 Dual-Cat.reg
M__Y7`&D`;@!D`&\`=P!S`" `4@!E`&<`:0!S`'0`<@!Y`" `10!D`&D`= !O
M`'(`( !6`&4`<@!S`&D`;P!N`" `-0`N`# `, `-``H`#0`*`%L`2 !+`$4`
M60!?`$,`50!2`%(`10!.`%0`7P!5`%,`10!2`%P`4P!O`&8`= !W`&$`<@!E
M`%P`30!I`&,`<@!O`',`;P!F`'0`7 !-`&\`;@!E`'D`7 `Q`#0`+@`P`%T`
M#0`*`"(`50!S`&4`1 !U`&$`; !#`&$`= !-`&\`9 !E`"(`/0!D`'<`;P!R
9`&0`.@`P`# `, `P`# `, `P`#$`#0`*````
`
end

Jim
Thu Nov 18 17:49:27 CST 2004

Thank you, thank you, thank you & thank you !!!!



"Russ Paul-Jones" <russpj@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:%23$c8eMczEHA.3236@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
> Looks like the update is arriving.
>
> For those with the current update of M05 wanting to restore dual-cat
> combos, here is the registry key:
>
> [HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Money\14.0]
> "UseDualCatMode"=dword:00000001
>
> Personally, I'm not sure what to do. I've been spending years trying to
> get used to single-cat, and I still don't like it as much as dual-cat. I
> think I'll honor the team by using this switch.
>
> -Russ Paul-Jones
> MSN Money
>
>

Dick
Thu Nov 18 21:14:26 CST 2004

Could you give us some insight into the rationale for removing it in the
first place?

"Russ Paul-Jones" <russpj@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:%23$c8eMczEHA.3236@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
> Personally, I'm not sure what to do. I've been spending years trying to
> get used to single-cat, and I still don't like it as much as dual-cat. I
> think I'll honor the team by using this switch.

R
Thu Nov 18 23:21:06 CST 2004


"Dick Watson" <littlegreengecko@mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote in
message news:ubYeXXezEHA.3656@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> Could you give us some insight into the rationale for removing it in the
> first place?
>

It seems to me maybe to make it more like Quicken. I never used them in the
money manner before, but can see where they'd be nice. If it was in fact to
keep up with the Jones', it's too bad they don't realize that people pick
Money precisely because it's not Quicken.

> "Russ Paul-Jones" <russpj@microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:%23$c8eMczEHA.3236@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
>> Personally, I'm not sure what to do. I've been spending years trying to
>> get used to single-cat, and I still don't like it as much as dual-cat. I
>> think I'll honor the team by using this switch.
>
>

Ken
Fri Nov 19 06:33:27 CST 2004

Thank you!! Do you think maybe the "next release" of money will make Dual
Category an option somewhere besides a registry modification? However, I'll
take it anyway I can get it.

"Russ Paul-Jones" <russpj@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:%23$c8eMczEHA.3236@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
> Looks like the update is arriving.
>
> For those with the current update of M05 wanting to restore dual-cat
> combos, here is the registry key:
>
> [HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Money\14.0]
> "UseDualCatMode"=dword:00000001
>
> Personally, I'm not sure what to do. I've been spending years trying to
> get used to single-cat, and I still don't like it as much as dual-cat. I
> think I'll honor the team by using this switch.
>
> -Russ Paul-Jones
> MSN Money
>
>

Terry
Fri Nov 19 09:39:09 CST 2004

I created the registry entry as you indicated but I still see single category
drop down lists in my money file is there anything else I need to do?

"Cal Learner-- MVP" wrote:

> In microsoft.public.money, Jack wrote:
>
> >For those of us who are not the greatest with messing with the registry can
> >you give a more detailed way of entering this? I tried to enter a new key
> >and it makes a new folder.
>
> If you copy the four lines between the begin/end lines below
> into a file called 2cat.reg, you can double-click 2cat.reg in
> Windows Explorer create the key.
>
> ==========begin:2cat.reg===============
> REGEDIT4
>
> [HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Money\14.0]
> "UseDualCatMode"=dword:00000001
> ==============end:2cat.reg=============
>
>
>

TerryFranklin
Fri Nov 19 10:21:06 CST 2004

Disregard previous post -- I went into regedit and created the dword entry
manually and now I have my dual category back. THANKS TO ALL FOR MAKING THIS
HAPPEN!

"Terry Franklin" wrote:

> I created the registry entry as you indicated but I still see single category
> drop down lists in my money file is there anything else I need to do?
>
> "Cal Learner-- MVP" wrote:
>
> > In microsoft.public.money, Jack wrote:
> >
> > >For those of us who are not the greatest with messing with the registry can
> > >you give a more detailed way of entering this? I tried to enter a new key
> > >and it makes a new folder.
> >
> > If you copy the four lines between the begin/end lines below
> > into a file called 2cat.reg, you can double-click 2cat.reg in
> > Windows Explorer create the key.
> >
> > ==========begin:2cat.reg===============
> > REGEDIT4
> >
> > [HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Money\14.0]
> > "UseDualCatMode"=dword:00000001
> > ==============end:2cat.reg=============
> >
> >
> >

Ian
Sun Nov 21 03:16:45 CST 2004

Could somebody please explain to me what this is? I'm not aware that I
missing anything!

Ian

"Russ Paul-Jones" <russpj@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:%23$c8eMczEHA.3236@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
> Looks like the update is arriving.
>
> For those with the current update of M05 wanting to restore dual-cat
> combos, here is the registry key:
>
> [HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Money\14.0]
> "UseDualCatMode"=dword:00000001
>
> Personally, I'm not sure what to do. I've been spending years trying to
> get used to single-cat, and I still don't like it as much as dual-cat. I
> think I'll honor the team by using this switch.
>
> -Russ Paul-Jones
> MSN Money
>
>

Glyn
Sun Nov 21 04:23:31 CST 2004

In previous versions of Money, when entering transactions you could use two
dropdown lists for the category - one for the category and the other for the
subcategory. This was removed in 2005 to be replaced with a single dropdown
list for the category and subcategbory. The recent fix and this registry key
restores that functionality.

--
Glyn Simpson, Microsoft MVP - Money
http://money.mvps.org

Check http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=fh;EN-GB;mny
for UK tips and fixes for MS Money. To send Microsoft your wishes or
suggestions, use http://register.microsoft.com/mswish/suggestion.asp
or http://www.microsoft.com/uk/support/money/feedback especially
if it's a UK specific wish.

I do not respond to any unsolicited email regarding Money

"Ian Waddington" <irwmlistlist@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:OxudVr6zEHA.3416@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> Could somebody please explain to me what this is? I'm not aware that I
> missing anything!
>
> Ian
>
> "Russ Paul-Jones" <russpj@microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:%23$c8eMczEHA.3236@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
>> Looks like the update is arriving.
>>
>> For those with the current update of M05 wanting to restore dual-cat
>> combos, here is the registry key:
>>
>> [HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Money\14.0]
>> "UseDualCatMode"=dword:00000001
>>
>> Personally, I'm not sure what to do. I've been spending years trying to
>> get used to single-cat, and I still don't like it as much as dual-cat. I
>> think I'll honor the team by using this switch.
>>
>> -Russ Paul-Jones
>> MSN Money
>>
>>
>
>

Steve
Mon Nov 22 15:06:27 CST 2004

Hmm, I think I'm missing something now....I've only got one drop down in
2004 FS, which lists cat & sub-cat....what've I done wrong??

Oh, and if I can sneak another question in, M04 appears to be version 12,
and M05 version 14, so what happened to 13??

Thanks and regards
Steve.

"Glyn Simpson, MVP" <glyn@serf.org> wrote in message
news:%23TH1mQ7zEHA.3840@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> In previous versions of Money, when entering transactions you could use
> two dropdown lists for the category - one for the category and the other
> for the subcategory. This was removed in 2005 to be replaced with a single
> dropdown list for the category and subcategbory. The recent fix and this
> registry key restores that functionality.
>
> --
> Glyn Simpson, Microsoft MVP - Money
> http://money.mvps.org
>
> Check http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=fh;EN-GB;mny
> for UK tips and fixes for MS Money. To send Microsoft your wishes or
> suggestions, use http://register.microsoft.com/mswish/suggestion.asp
> or http://www.microsoft.com/uk/support/money/feedback especially
> if it's a UK specific wish.
>
> I do not respond to any unsolicited email regarding Money
>
> "Ian Waddington" <irwmlistlist@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:OxudVr6zEHA.3416@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
>> Could somebody please explain to me what this is? I'm not aware that I
>> missing anything!
>>
>> Ian
>>
>> "Russ Paul-Jones" <russpj@microsoft.com> wrote in message
>> news:%23$c8eMczEHA.3236@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
>>> Looks like the update is arriving.
>>>
>>> For those with the current update of M05 wanting to restore dual-cat
>>> combos, here is the registry key:
>>>
>>> [HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Money\14.0]
>>> "UseDualCatMode"=dword:00000001
>>>
>>> Personally, I'm not sure what to do. I've been spending years trying to
>>> get used to single-cat, and I still don't like it as much as dual-cat. I
>>> think I'll honor the team by using this switch.
>>>
>>> -Russ Paul-Jones
>>> MSN Money
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

Glyn
Mon Nov 22 15:29:48 CST 2004

theres an option to change it in 2004 - under tools->options somewhere

13 was officially an online version i think. I just think they're afraid of
the number :-)

--
Glyn Simpson, Microsoft MVP - Money
http://money.mvps.org

Check http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=fh;EN-GB;mny
for UK tips and fixes for MS Money. To send Microsoft your wishes or
suggestions, use http://register.microsoft.com/mswish/suggestion.asp
or http://www.microsoft.com/uk/support/money/feedback especially
if it's a UK specific wish.

I do not respond to any unsolicited email regarding Money

"Steve" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:uF3gZcN0EHA.3376@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> Hmm, I think I'm missing something now....I've only got one drop down in
> 2004 FS, which lists cat & sub-cat....what've I done wrong??
>
> Oh, and if I can sneak another question in, M04 appears to be version 12,
> and M05 version 14, so what happened to 13??
>
> Thanks and regards
> Steve.
>
> "Glyn Simpson, MVP" <glyn@serf.org> wrote in message
> news:%23TH1mQ7zEHA.3840@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
>> In previous versions of Money, when entering transactions you could use
>> two dropdown lists for the category - one for the category and the other
>> for the subcategory. This was removed in 2005 to be replaced with a
>> single dropdown list for the category and subcategbory. The recent fix
>> and this registry key restores that functionality.
>>
>> --
>> Glyn Simpson, Microsoft MVP - Money
>> http://money.mvps.org
>>
>> Check http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=fh;EN-GB;mny
>> for UK tips and fixes for MS Money. To send Microsoft your wishes or
>> suggestions, use http://register.microsoft.com/mswish/suggestion.asp
>> or http://www.microsoft.com/uk/support/money/feedback especially
>> if it's a UK specific wish.
>>
>> I do not respond to any unsolicited email regarding Money
>>
>> "Ian Waddington" <irwmlistlist@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:OxudVr6zEHA.3416@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
>>> Could somebody please explain to me what this is? I'm not aware that I
>>> missing anything!
>>>
>>> Ian
>>>
>>> "Russ Paul-Jones" <russpj@microsoft.com> wrote in message
>>> news:%23$c8eMczEHA.3236@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
>>>> Looks like the update is arriving.
>>>>
>>>> For those with the current update of M05 wanting to restore dual-cat
>>>> combos, here is the registry key:
>>>>
>>>> [HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Money\14.0]
>>>> "UseDualCatMode"=dword:00000001
>>>>
>>>> Personally, I'm not sure what to do. I've been spending years trying to
>>>> get used to single-cat, and I still don't like it as much as dual-cat.
>>>> I think I'll honor the team by using this switch.
>>>>
>>>> -Russ Paul-Jones
>>>> MSN Money
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

Ian
Mon Nov 22 15:34:14 CST 2004

Glyn

Yes, thats what I thought it might be. The first thing I did with 2004 was
change it from double to single. I find it much easier.

Ian

"Glyn Simpson, MVP" <glyn@serf.org> wrote in message
news:%23TH1mQ7zEHA.3840@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> In previous versions of Money, when entering transactions you could use
> two dropdown lists for the category - one for the category and the other
> for the subcategory. This was removed in 2005 to be replaced with a single
> dropdown list for the category and subcategbory. The recent fix and this
> registry key restores that functionality.
>
> --
> Glyn Simpson, Microsoft MVP - Money
> http://money.mvps.org
>
> Check http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=fh;EN-GB;mny
> for UK tips and fixes for MS Money. To send Microsoft your wishes or
> suggestions, use http://register.microsoft.com/mswish/suggestion.asp
> or http://www.microsoft.com/uk/support/money/feedback especially
> if it's a UK specific wish.
>
> I do not respond to any unsolicited email regarding Money
>
> "Ian Waddington" <irwmlistlist@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:OxudVr6zEHA.3416@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
>> Could somebody please explain to me what this is? I'm not aware that I
>> missing anything!
>>
>> Ian
>>
>> "Russ Paul-Jones" <russpj@microsoft.com> wrote in message
>> news:%23$c8eMczEHA.3236@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
>>> Looks like the update is arriving.
>>>
>>> For those with the current update of M05 wanting to restore dual-cat
>>> combos, here is the registry key:
>>>
>>> [HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Money\14.0]
>>> "UseDualCatMode"=dword:00000001
>>>
>>> Personally, I'm not sure what to do. I've been spending years trying to
>>> get used to single-cat, and I still don't like it as much as dual-cat. I
>>> think I'll honor the team by using this switch.
>>>
>>> -Russ Paul-Jones
>>> MSN Money
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

Jim
Mon Nov 22 17:42:27 CST 2004

I like double. Cant stand single
"Ian Waddington" <irwmlistlist@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:OstVGsN0EHA.3588@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
> Glyn
>
> Yes, thats what I thought it might be. The first thing I did with 2004
> was change it from double to single. I find it much easier.
>
> Ian
>
> "Glyn Simpson, MVP" <glyn@serf.org> wrote in message
> news:%23TH1mQ7zEHA.3840@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
>> In previous versions of Money, when entering transactions you could use
>> two dropdown lists for the category - one for the category and the other
>> for the subcategory. This was removed in 2005 to be replaced with a
>> single dropdown list for the category and subcategbory. The recent fix
>> and this registry key restores that functionality.
>>
>> --
>> Glyn Simpson, Microsoft MVP - Money
>> http://money.mvps.org
>>
>> Check http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=fh;EN-GB;mny
>> for UK tips and fixes for MS Money. To send Microsoft your wishes or
>> suggestions, use http://register.microsoft.com/mswish/suggestion.asp
>> or http://www.microsoft.com/uk/support/money/feedback especially
>> if it's a UK specific wish.
>>
>> I do not respond to any unsolicited email regarding Money
>>
>> "Ian Waddington" <irwmlistlist@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:OxudVr6zEHA.3416@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
>>> Could somebody please explain to me what this is? I'm not aware that I
>>> missing anything!
>>>
>>> Ian
>>>
>>> "Russ Paul-Jones" <russpj@microsoft.com> wrote in message
>>> news:%23$c8eMczEHA.3236@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
>>>> Looks like the update is arriving.
>>>>
>>>> For those with the current update of M05 wanting to restore dual-cat
>>>> combos, here is the registry key:
>>>>
>>>> [HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Money\14.0]
>>>> "UseDualCatMode"=dword:00000001
>>>>
>>>> Personally, I'm not sure what to do. I've been spending years trying to
>>>> get used to single-cat, and I still don't like it as much as dual-cat.
>>>> I think I'll honor the team by using this switch.
>>>>
>>>> -Russ Paul-Jones
>>>> MSN Money
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

Dick
Mon Nov 22 18:53:25 CST 2004

Do you mostly use the top level categories (Automobile/Food) or use the
lower level ones (Automobile:Gasoline/Food:Groceries)?

"Ian Waddington" <irwmlistlist@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:OstVGsN0EHA.3588@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
> Yes, thats what I thought it might be. The first thing I did with 2004
> was change it from double to single. I find it much easier.

Art
Mon Nov 22 18:58:55 CST 2004

less filling -- more taste --

Glad they have now made it possible to make both of you happy!!

maybe next year they will put it back into the options so that do not
need to go into the registry.

Jim wrote:

> I like double. Cant stand single
> "Ian Waddington" <irwmlistlist@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:OstVGsN0EHA.3588@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>
>>Glyn
>>
>>Yes, thats what I thought it might be. The first thing I did with 2004
>>was change it from double to single. I find it much easier.
>>
>>Ian
>>

quest
Tue Nov 23 00:25:51 CST 2004

With all of the talk about this I changed my in Money 2004 to a 'single'
category list to experinece what it was like .... and found I like it
better. I use all subcategories for my tracking ... but, to access the
sub-categrories you can 'start' typing groc or din, or gas to access the sub
categories of Food:Groceries, Food:Diniing out; Automobile: Gasoline
respectively.




"Dick Watson" <littlegreengecko@mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote in
message news:%23sVSfcP0EHA.1192@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> Do you mostly use the top level categories (Automobile/Food) or use the
> lower level ones (Automobile:Gasoline/Food:Groceries)?
>
> "Ian Waddington" <irwmlistlist@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:OstVGsN0EHA.3588@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>> Yes, thats what I thought it might be. The first thing I did with 2004
>> was change it from double to single. I find it much easier.
>
>

Steve
Tue Nov 23 00:41:49 CST 2004


"quest" <quest@abc.com> wrote in message
news:uxqLJVS0EHA.1300@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...

> categories of Food:Groceries, Food:Diniing out; Automobile: Gasoline
> respectively.
>

You mean you haven't changed this to read Car: Petrol?? ;-)

(apologies if you're State-side!)

Steve

Jim
Tue Nov 23 07:06:45 CST 2004

I use lower level categories
"Dick Watson" <littlegreengecko@mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote in
message news:%23sVSfcP0EHA.1192@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> Do you mostly use the top level categories (Automobile/Food) or use the
> lower level ones (Automobile:Gasoline/Food:Groceries)?
>
> "Ian Waddington" <irwmlistlist@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:OstVGsN0EHA.3588@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>> Yes, thats what I thought it might be. The first thing I did with 2004
>> was change it from double to single. I find it much easier.
>
>

Dick
Tue Nov 23 07:29:49 CST 2004

I guess I still find single category takes more typing. I ran that way from
the time I heard M05 was doing away with dual category until I pitched it.

"quest" <quest@abc.com> wrote in message
news:uxqLJVS0EHA.1300@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
> With all of the talk about this I changed my in Money 2004 to a 'single'
> category list to experinece what it was like .... and found I like it
> better. I use all subcategories for my tracking ... but, to access the
> sub-categrories you can 'start' typing groc or din, or gas to access the
> sub categories of Food:Groceries, Food:Diniing out; Automobile: Gasoline
> respectively.

Dick
Tue Nov 23 07:30:57 CST 2004

And you prefer single category list entry? Do you use mouse/pulldowns or
type?

"Jim" <razerviper-news@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:6NydnU8HO-14qD7cRVn-oA@comcast.com...
>I use lower level categories

Ian
Tue Nov 23 15:55:53 CST 2004

I also use lower level catagoies and find that typing enough of the first to
get recognised follwed by a : then the second is sufficient.

I have a number of duplicate lower level ones which are only unique within
the top level parent.

Ian
"Jim" <razerviper-news@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:6NydnU8HO-14qD7cRVn-oA@comcast.com...
>I use lower level categories
> "Dick Watson" <littlegreengecko@mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote in
> message news:%23sVSfcP0EHA.1192@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
>> Do you mostly use the top level categories (Automobile/Food) or use the
>> lower level ones (Automobile:Gasoline/Food:Groceries)?
>>
>> "Ian Waddington" <irwmlistlist@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:OstVGsN0EHA.3588@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>> Yes, thats what I thought it might be. The first thing I did with 2004
>>> was change it from double to single. I find it much easier.
>>
>>
>
>

Dick
Tue Nov 23 19:07:15 CST 2004

I guess my use is the same. But for a decade I found Tab easier then
Shift+;.

"Ian Waddington" <irwmlistlist@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:uHJ42ca0EHA.632@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>I also use lower level catagoies and find that typing enough of the first
>to get recognised follwed by a : then the second is sufficient.
>
> I have a number of duplicate lower level ones which are only unique within
> the top level parent.

quest
Tue Nov 23 23:14:20 CST 2004

Have you tried typing the first few letters of the lower level category ...
works for most cases for me.


"Ian Waddington" <irwmlistlist@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:uHJ42ca0EHA.632@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>I also use lower level catagoies and find that typing enough of the first
>to get recognised follwed by a : then the second is sufficient.
>
> I have a number of duplicate lower level ones which are only unique within
> the top level parent.
>
> Ian
> "Jim" <razerviper-news@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:6NydnU8HO-14qD7cRVn-oA@comcast.com...
>>I use lower level categories
>> "Dick Watson" <littlegreengecko@mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote in
>> message news:%23sVSfcP0EHA.1192@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
>>> Do you mostly use the top level categories (Automobile/Food) or use the
>>> lower level ones (Automobile:Gasoline/Food:Groceries)?
>>>
>>> "Ian Waddington" <irwmlistlist@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
>>> news:OstVGsN0EHA.3588@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>>> Yes, thats what I thought it might be. The first thing I did with 2004
>>>> was change it from double to single. I find it much easier.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

Jim
Wed Nov 24 02:54:50 CST 2004

No i dont like single category. I use the tab key for navigation.
"Dick Watson" <littlegreengecko@mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote in
message news:eR1mDYW0EHA.2688@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> And you prefer single category list entry? Do you use mouse/pulldowns or
> type?
>
> "Jim" <razerviper-news@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:6NydnU8HO-14qD7cRVn-oA@comcast.com...
>>I use lower level categories
>
>

Jim
Wed Nov 24 05:56:33 CST 2004

That's how I do it to. I've never understood Dick's reasoning that more
typing is involved - seem less to me. I think if you know what lower level
one you want you can just type the first few letters of that and it will
pull up. There are a lot of gripes about 2005, but I never quite understood
why that one is such a big deal to people.

Jim

"Ian Waddington" <irwmlistlist@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:uHJ42ca0EHA.632@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>I also use lower level catagoies and find that typing enough of the first
>to get recognised follwed by a : then the second is sufficient.
>
> I have a number of duplicate lower level ones which are only unique within
> the top level parent.
>
> Ian
> "Jim" <razerviper-news@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:6NydnU8HO-14qD7cRVn-oA@comcast.com...
>>I use lower level categories
>> "Dick Watson" <littlegreengecko@mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote in
>> message news:%23sVSfcP0EHA.1192@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
>>> Do you mostly use the top level categories (Automobile/Food) or use the
>>> lower level ones (Automobile:Gasoline/Food:Groceries)?
>>>
>>> "Ian Waddington" <irwmlistlist@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
>>> news:OstVGsN0EHA.3588@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>>> Yes, thats what I thought it might be. The first thing I did with 2004
>>>> was change it from double to single. I find it much easier.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

Dick
Wed Nov 24 07:51:52 CST 2004

It takes more typing for the very reason Ian cites:

>> I have a number of duplicate lower level ones which are only unique
>> within the top level parent.

These duplicates are not necessarily complete duplicates. But if I'm trying
to enter one or two or three characters, it has to disambiguate against more
than twice as many possibilities.

Likewise, it forces overcoming ten years of muscle memory for no good
purpose that I can see. Leaving the option for dual list cost nothing and
harmed no one. (Actually, it was an option for NOT dual list.)

This was not my top reason for disliking M05. See
http://umpmfaq.info/Money2005.htm for more information.

"Jim Johnson" <dogman56@msn.com> wrote in message
news:10q8tnk863f8b62@corp.supernews.com...
> That's how I do it to. I've never understood Dick's reasoning that more
> typing is involved - seem less to me. I think if you know what lower
> level one you want you can just type the first few letters of that and it
> will pull up. There are a lot of gripes about 2005, but I never quite
> understood why that one is such a big deal to people.

Jim
Thu Nov 25 06:13:34 CST 2004

point taken

Jim

"Dick Watson" <littlegreengecko@mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote in
message news:eFlKF0i0EHA.2568@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> It takes more typing for the very reason Ian cites:
>
>>> I have a number of duplicate lower level ones which are only unique
>>> within the top level parent.
>
> These duplicates are not necessarily complete duplicates. But if I'm
> trying to enter one or two or three characters, it has to disambiguate
> against more than twice as many possibilities.
>
> Likewise, it forces overcoming ten years of muscle memory for no good
> purpose that I can see. Leaving the option for dual list cost nothing and
> harmed no one. (Actually, it was an option for NOT dual list.)
>
> This was not my top reason for disliking M05. See
> http://umpmfaq.info/Money2005.htm for more information.
>
> "Jim Johnson" <dogman56@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:10q8tnk863f8b62@corp.supernews.com...
>> That's how I do it to. I've never understood Dick's reasoning that more
>> typing is involved - seem less to me. I think if you know what lower
>> level one you want you can just type the first few letters of that and it
>> will pull up. There are a lot of gripes about 2005, but I never quite
>> understood why that one is such a big deal to people.
>
>

Chris
Fri Nov 26 11:58:24 CST 2004

It takes exactly the same number of key strokes when there duplicate
subcategories. Just replace the tab in dual-categories with a colon in
single-categories, once the first few characters uniquely identify the top
category.

It takes less keystrokes using single categories when you have unique
subcategories. Just skip the category (which you can't do in dual-category
display) and start typing the subcategory.

I used to prefer dual-categories as you do, Dick. I switched when '05 came
out, to make a comparison. In my opinion, it's better, but it's just that:
an opinion.
--
Chris Cowles,
Gainesville, FL

"Dick Watson" <littlegreengecko@mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote in
message news:eFlKF0i0EHA.2568@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> It takes more typing for the very reason Ian cites:
>
>>> I have a number of duplicate lower level ones which are only unique
>>> within the top level parent.

Dick
Fri Nov 26 12:29:14 CST 2004

If the : were a ;, I might agree for the case of duplicates subs within
categories, which is not a common one for me.

But here's an example of where this doesn't work. I have
Miscellaneous:Transit and Transfer:[many]. Old way took keystrokes: "tr TAB
Shift+(" (for account named "(pocket change)") since tr disambiguated
Transfer. New way takes keystrokes: "transf Shift+; Shift+(" to avoid
Transit. Now it's possible that some of the transfer targets would be easier
to just type and enable skipping typing the "transf". But I don't think of
it as anything but a Transfer:[name of acct]. So mentally, this is a hurdle
I still haven't overcome.

I've been running this way since I heard M05 was forcing it. I still prefer
the other. I could probably be retrained with enough time and practice. But,
I ask again, why must I be? What was the gain to the product of eliminating
the option? Did it make it a better tool? Did it make life any easier for
new users for whom it was already the default? I asked Russ this in a
posting in one of his threads. He didn't answer.

"Chris Cowles" <NoSpam@For.me> wrote in message
news:urQKJG%230EHA.2292@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
> It takes exactly the same number of key strokes when there duplicate
> subcategories. Just replace the tab in dual-categories with a colon in
> single-categories, once the first few characters uniquely identify the top
> category.
>
> It takes less keystrokes using single categories when you have unique
> subcategories. Just skip the category (which you can't do in dual-category
> display) and start typing the subcategory.
>
> I used to prefer dual-categories as you do, Dick. I switched when '05 came
> out, to make a comparison. In my opinion, it's better, but it's just that:
> an opinion.

Chris
Fri Nov 26 17:28:08 CST 2004

I consider a combination keystroke the same as a single key, as long as it's
a natural hand movement. Therein lies the difference in our perceptions, I
believe.

I agree that it should remain an option. Disabling it was short-sighted by
MS. It only irritated some customers and did not provide any advantage to
those already using single categories.
--
Chris Cowles,
Gainesville, FL

"Dick Watson" <littlegreengecko@mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote in
message news:e4ctEi%230EHA.3368@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> I ask again, why must I be? What was the gain to the product of
> eliminating the option? Did it make it a better tool? Did it make life any
> easier for new users for whom it was already the default? I asked Russ
> this in a posting in one of his threads. He didn't answer.

Russ
Mon Nov 29 20:34:25 CST 2004

I saw Dick's earlier request in this same thread. I'm sorry for not
answering sooner, but it's really not that interesting an answer, and it's
much too long for its worth. But you have asked nicely twice now.

Assuming a team with finite resources, every feature created or maintained
has an opportunity cost in things that the team will not do, whether in new
features, better quality, or earlier shipping of the release. That is
obvious, but it is useful to point out that in order to manage the product
we make many decisions where these tradeoffs are important, and even the
maintenance of existing features can have non-trivial costs.

So, all I can really do is explain the costs, and perhaps the train of
thought. The new register is essentially new code. As functionality was
brought over, it gave us a chance to examine it once again. Very early on,
we decided to settle on one version of the category combos for the new
register, and a single combo was deemed better for the customers we thought
would use it. It has been our default for new users for a few versions now,
and it tests better with potential customers.

We also did some reworking of the older register code (to base it on some of
the same foundations that the new register would be using). At this time,
the same thinking sort of leaked over in this form: "Is it worth the cost of
reworking and retesting this code, given that we have a more popular version
of the control set that we know we'll continue to develop in future
versions?"

I think that it was a mistake to let the thinking leak over, or at least to
let it answer the question. The team did look into the question of backwards
compatability, but convinced themselves that users didn't need both ways to
accomplish the same task. This evaluation didn't take into account the
attachment you naturally have to certain keystroke patterns or the seeming
arbitrariness of the decision.

I think that this thread has supported the thinking that both ways can be
considered better by different users, but I'm glad that we were able to
restore your choice in this matter.

-Russ Paul-Jones

"Dick Watson" <littlegreengecko@mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote in
message news:e4ctEi%230EHA.3368@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> If the : were a ;, I might agree for the case of duplicates subs within
> categories, which is not a common one for me.
>
> But here's an example of where this doesn't work. I have
> Miscellaneous:Transit and Transfer:[many]. Old way took keystrokes: "tr
> TAB Shift+(" (for account named "(pocket change)") since tr disambiguated
> Transfer. New way takes keystrokes: "transf Shift+; Shift+(" to avoid
> Transit. Now it's possible that some of the transfer targets would be
> easier to just type and enable skipping typing the "transf". But I don't
> think of it as anything but a Transfer:[name of acct]. So mentally, this
> is a hurdle I still haven't overcome.
>
> I've been running this way since I heard M05 was forcing it. I still
> prefer the other. I could probably be retrained with enough time and
> practice. But, I ask again, why must I be? What was the gain to the
> product of eliminating the option? Did it make it a better tool? Did it
> make life any easier for new users for whom it was already the default? I
> asked Russ this in a posting in one of his threads. He didn't answer.
>
> "Chris Cowles" <NoSpam@For.me> wrote in message
> news:urQKJG%230EHA.2292@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
>> It takes exactly the same number of key strokes when there duplicate
>> subcategories. Just replace the tab in dual-categories with a colon in
>> single-categories, once the first few characters uniquely identify the
>> top category.
>>
>> It takes less keystrokes using single categories when you have unique
>> subcategories. Just skip the category (which you can't do in
>> dual-category display) and start typing the subcategory.
>>
>> I used to prefer dual-categories as you do, Dick. I switched when '05
>> came out, to make a comparison. In my opinion, it's better, but it's just
>> that: an opinion.
>
>

Russ
Mon Nov 29 20:35:45 CST 2004

I saw Dick's earlier request in this same thread. I'm sorry for not
answering sooner, but it's really not that interesting an answer, and it's
much too long for its worth. But you have asked nicely twice now.

Assuming a team with finite resources, every feature created or maintained
has an opportunity cost in things that the team will not do, whether in new
features, better quality, or earlier shipping of the release. That is
obvious, but it is useful to point out that in order to manage the product
we make many decisions where these tradeoffs are important, and even the
maintenance of existing features can have non-trivial costs.

So, all I can really do is explain the costs, and perhaps the train of
thought. The new register is essentially new code. As functionality was
brought over, it gave us a chance to examine it once again. Very early on,
we decided to settle on one version of the category combos for the new
register, and a single combo was deemed better for the customers we thought
would use it. It has been our default for new users for a few versions now,
and it tests better with potential customers.

We also did some reworking of the older register code (to base it on some of
the same foundations that the new register would be using). At this time,
the same thinking sort of leaked over in this form: "Is it worth the cost of
reworking and retesting this code, given that we have a more popular version
of the control set that we know we'll continue to develop in future
versions?"

I think that it was a mistake to let the thinking leak over, or at least to
let it answer the question. The team did look into the question of backwards
compatability, but convinced themselves that users didn't need both ways to
accomplish the same task. This evaluation didn't take into account the
attachment you naturally have to certain keystroke patterns or the seeming
arbitrariness of the decision.

I think that this thread has supported the thinking that both ways can be
considered better by different users, but I'm glad that we were able to
restore your choice in this matter.

-Russ Paul-Jones

"Dick Watson" <littlegreengecko@mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote in
message news:e4ctEi%230EHA.3368@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> If the : were a ;, I might agree for the case of duplicates subs within
> categories, which is not a common one for me.
>
> But here's an example of where this doesn't work. I have
> Miscellaneous:Transit and Transfer:[many]. Old way took keystrokes: "tr
> TAB Shift+(" (for account named "(pocket change)") since tr disambiguated
> Transfer. New way takes keystrokes: "transf Shift+; Shift+(" to avoid
> Transit. Now it's possible that some of the transfer targets would be
> easier to just type and enable skipping typing the "transf". But I don't
> think of it as anything but a Transfer:[name of acct]. So mentally, this
> is a hurdle I still haven't overcome.
>
> I've been running this way since I heard M05 was forcing it. I still
> prefer the other. I could probably be retrained with enough time and
> practice. But, I ask again, why must I be? What was the gain to the
> product of eliminating the option? Did it make it a better tool? Did it
> make life any easier for new users for whom it was already the default? I
> asked Russ this in a posting in one of his threads. He didn't answer.
>
> "Chris Cowles" <NoSpam@For.me> wrote in message
> news:urQKJG%230EHA.2292@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
>> It takes exactly the same number of key strokes when there duplicate
>> subcategories. Just replace the tab in dual-categories with a colon in
>> single-categories, once the first few characters uniquely identify the
>> top category.
>>
>> It takes less keystrokes using single categories when you have unique
>> subcategories. Just skip the category (which you can't do in
>> dual-category display) and start typing the subcategory.
>>
>> I used to prefer dual-categories as you do, Dick. I switched when '05
>> came out, to make a comparison. In my opinion, it's better, but it's just
>> that: an opinion.
>
>

Dick
Mon Nov 29 22:38:36 CST 2004

This post sent me to thinking and to do a little bit of real-world analysis.
Actually, the little bit of analysis turned into somewhat of a science
project. There were some interesting results.

I set out to test categories from my existing data to determine what effect
single category list had vs. dual category list on the amount of typing to
enter autocompleted categories.

First, I retrieved all of my Money transactions into Excel using MoneyLink.
I retrieved all transactions for all accounts for all dates. This yielded
33,993 transactions (as of a few moments ago). I used Excel to reduce this
to unique lists of category:subcategory to reflect my real-world data. In
order to make the data-grinding easier, I put this data in Access tables.
The first listed categories, the second subcategories with a key link to the
parent categories (this to deal with Housing:Maintenance vs., say,
Automobile:Maintenance), and the third listed the merged set of category and
subcategory names. These tables, respectively, had 28, 269, and 261 rows.
One interesting side effect observable at this phase was that many
subcategories were actually investment names that were the object of Buy
activity. The investment names tend to be long and repetitive from one to
the next, many beginning with, say, "Fidelity " or "US $100 EE Bond - ".
Unfortunately, MoneyLink can't extract classification. I would have done a
parallel exercise.

With a little bit of VBA, I developed queries to count the character cost to
render these unique. I did make allowance for the "one key" alphabet-order
hits. ("Aaa" found before "Abc" just by typing the "a".) I also made sure to
recognize that subcategories will autocomplete in a subset only of
subcategories with the same parent. (Bbb found in Aaa:Baa without regard to
Ddd:Ba.) I then queried out the average of these unique character costs.
Categories from the categories only list took an average of 2.71 characters,
from the subcategories list (within their categories) 4.68 characters, and
to pick a unique name from the merged list 5.74 characters. This suggests a
character cost for dual list entry on the order of almost two characters,
allowing for the separator (":"). (2.71+1+5.74)

I didn't like this answer since it didn't match my preconceived notion that
dual list saves me typing.

Considering why I got this answer, I decided that perhaps the large number
of characters associated with making the investments unique (among other
similar rare but long and rare and duplicative things) might be skewing
results since they are a VERY small player in the total list of
transactions.

So I did some more Access hacking. I linked to the Excel table of MoneyLink
retrieved transaction data and went off and create a rather surprising large
set of queries to weigh these character costs against the total set of data
at hand. (Even in this, certain concessions must be made. I didn't have any
easy way to weigh this cost vs. actual typing and weed out autocompletes
based on Payee or categorization long-since entered only once in a scheduled
item and not retyped for many or most of the transactions in the data set.)

I applied the character costs to each of 33,927 transactions. (The
difference between the 33,927 and the total of 33,993 retrieved represents
uncategorized transactions.) Averaging the results indicated that dual list
entry represented an average of 5.67 keystrokes, including the one character
separator. (This ignores my preference for Tab vs. Shift+;.) Entering the
single list unique category represented an average of 4.31 characters.

Again, I didn't like this answer since it didn't match my preconceived
notion that dual list saves me typing. (At least this vindicated my theory
that weighting against frequency in the dataset would reduce the cost of
dual list entry.)

I had to spend a lot longer pondering this one. I don't enter data by only
the unique subcategory. I don't because I don't think of Food:Groceries as
Groceries (or G) whilst thinking of Automobile:maintenance as
Automobile:Maintenance (I can't think of this as just M since that collides
with Housing:Maintenance.) For this reason, even after several months of
trying to "get with the program" I still generally enter the category, the
separator, and the subcategory.

A little bit more query hacking and I determined the average keystroke cost
of entering the dataset, using the combined category and subcategory
namespace for the category and the individual parent category specific
namespaces for the subcategories and one character for the separator, to be
8.72 characters. This is more than three more keystrokes than dual list
entry from the separate namespaces.

Finally, I got a result I liked.

From this we can conclude that I have too much time on my hands or too much
of a sense of adventure for tackling questions like this. One can also
conclude that there may be some real effect here. The cost of this effect
depends heavily on two things: a) your category set and, particularly, the
extent of your usage of subcategories, and b) whether you actually enter
categorization using the optimal name every time. (The former is notable
since the M05 default categories all but eliminate subcategories. Why they
retained them for Taxes but not for other things where they are at least as
useful is a subject for another thread. The latter is notable since it
suggests that you have to remember, among 269 other possibilities, that g is
good enough for food:groceries but m is not good enough for
automobile:maintenance.) Of course, if you download transaction data and let
Money figure it out from the merchant name, the whole subject is moot.

As always, YMMV.

"Chris Cowles" <NoSpam@For.me> wrote in message
news:en6gZ%23A1EHA.2824@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
>I consider a combination keystroke the same as a single key, as long as
>it's a natural hand movement. Therein lies the difference in our
>perceptions, I believe.
>
> I agree that it should remain an option. Disabling it was short-sighted by
> MS. It only irritated some customers and did not provide any advantage to
> those already using single categories.
> --
> Chris Cowles,
> Gainesville, FL
>
> "Dick Watson" <littlegreengecko@mind-enufalready-spring.com> wrote in
> message news:e4ctEi%230EHA.3368@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>> I ask again, why must I be? What was the gain to the product of
>> eliminating the option? Did it make it a better tool? Did it make life
>> any easier for new users for whom it was already the default? I asked
>> Russ this in a posting in one of his threads. He didn't answer.
>
>

Dick
Mon Nov 29 23:16:42 CST 2004

Thank you for commenting on the decision and the process. More than many
others, I do understand how trades like this get made and lifecycle costs
get assessed in these trades. I've been there. And I've had to swallow my
share of design decisions that proved stupid or unpopular or both.

The one data point you provided that was missing from view was that the
visible register, largely unchanged for single category list users, was put
on top of fundamentally reworked register code. I will assume that the new
register code provides some benefits or better growth path for the future,
though these benefits in M05 were not apparent to me. Perhaps this was
because, for my three weeks, I was an Advanced * M05 user, not an Essential
* one.

Sadly, you also indirectly reinforce several of my unhappy conclusions. 1)
Features are being added (or subtracted) based heavily on a mythic
"perceived user"--the ones you "thought would use it"--or on testing with
people who aren't yet users and may never be, no matter what the product is
changed to be. The mythic user is a lowest-common-denominator one and the
goal is to continue to drive this level down rather than to empower all
users, including the curmudgeon power users, which may be a class of 1. 2)
Few of the Money developers actually use the thing to crank in serious
amounts of data and do serious analysis and financial management using it. I
conclude the latter because I find it inconceivable that serious users who
actually enter some data would not appreciate the impact that this change
would have on very longtime fellow users who actually crank lots of data
into this thing. I recognize this may be unfair. You may all just download
all your transaction data and never actually touch the keyboard when using
the product. More power to you if this is the case. But it does not
represent the way all users use it or at least not the way this one user
uses it.

Thanks again for listening and joining the discussion. It may not seem like
it, but many of us really are Money fans, myself included. (In my case,
that's excepting M05.) Hopefully the dialog contributes to a better product
in the future for all of us users and for Microsoft.

Note also my other entry tonight in this thread that recounts some
model-based analysis I did of the keystroke cost of this design choice.

"Russ Paul-Jones" <russpj@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:OSdpMVo1EHA.208@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...