new cert coming

http://www.mcpmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=789

--
Neil MCNGP#30

- Friction is a drag.

meanoldman
Tue Apr 05 14:11:05 CDT 2005

I've heard some details on it; sounds promising.

"Neil" <guess!!!@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns962F8D225D9D5neilmcsegmailcom@207.46.248.16...
> http://www.mcpmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=789
>
> --
> Neil MCNGP#30
>
> - Friction is a drag.

Ben
Tue Apr 05 14:39:19 CDT 2005

In article <#cZKtMhOFHA.3668@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl>, me@here.com says...
> Subject: Re: new cert coming
> From: "meanoldman" <me@here.com>
> Newsgroups: microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse
>
> I've heard some details on it; sounds promising.
>

It is very very cool. I have talked with the person who designed this, a
friend of mine, about it from time to time for the last 4 years.

blastingfonda
Tue Apr 05 15:23:59 CDT 2005

I've worked for too many so-called IT managers who couldn't manage
their way out of a paper bag let alone pass a rigorous certification
such as this. Also, way too many IT managers are paper shufflers with
little hands on IT experience. I hope the program exposes them to--and
forces them to be held accountable for knowing--technologies that I've
had to explain to managers dozens of times without anything ever
sinking in. I really hope this program is something IT managers are
forced to enroll in in order to keep their jobs. Realisitically, it
probably won't happen like that.

Neil
Tue Apr 05 16:02:56 CDT 2005

did you hear "blastingfonda" <blastingfonda@gmail.com> say in
news:1112732639.650082.18610@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:

> IT managers

but would an IT manager fit the profile of this certification?

--
Neil MCNGP#30

- Do infants have as much fun in their infancy as adults do in adultery?

Ben
Tue Apr 05 17:00:53 CDT 2005

In article <1112732639.650082.18610@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
blastingfonda@gmail.com says...
> I've worked for too many so-called IT managers who couldn't manage
> their way out of a paper bag let alone pass a rigorous certification
> such as this. Also, way too many IT managers are paper shufflers with
> little hands on IT experience. I hope the program exposes them to--and
> forces them to be held accountable for knowing--technologies that I've
> had to explain to managers dozens of times without anything ever
> sinking in. I really hope this program is something IT managers are
> forced to enroll in in order to keep their jobs. Realisitically, it
> probably won't happen like that.
>
>

While your point is well taken, IT Managers are really not in scope for
this credential. In fact, they most likely would not be allowed in.

catwalker63
Tue Apr 05 17:35:08 CDT 2005

Ben Smith <benjaminwsmith@hotmail.com> prattled ceaslessly in
news:MPG.1cbcaa6f31afd9ff9896cb@msnews.microsoft.com:

> In article <1112732639.650082.18610@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
> blastingfonda@gmail.com says...
>> I've worked for too many so-called IT managers who couldn't manage
>> their way out of a paper bag let alone pass a rigorous certification
>> such as this.
<snip>
>
> While your point is well taken, IT Managers are really not in scope for
> this credential. In fact, they most likely would not be allowed in.
>

So it should be. <eg>

--
Catwalker
aka Pu$$y Feet
BS, MCP, MCSA
MCNGP #43
www.mcngp.com
faq.mcngp.com

?If man could be crossed with the cat, it would improve man, but it would
deteriorate the cat.? Mark Twain

blastingfonda
Tue Apr 05 19:05:22 CDT 2005

Whoops, I hastily read the article in question and thought it was aimed
more at mid-level IT managers & such, specifically the part that it
would emphasize "objectives as project management, decision making and
oral and verbal communication."

That "verbal and oral communication" part basically excludes the entire
Indian subcontinent. And I don't think people are going to be able to
braindump for this cert. <g>

CBIC
Wed Apr 06 07:55:08 CDT 2005

> That "verbal and oral communication" part basically excludes the
> entire Indian subcontinent. And I don't think people are going to be
> able to braindump for this cert. <g>


I would think they could take it in their native language. Just because
someone doesn't speak english as thier native language doensn't mean they
aren't technically capable. You're spot on with the dumping part though.
--
aka
Doom MCNGP #38
How in the hell did you get access to a computer?
www.mcngp.com invented the internet

rowdyyatesmcngp
Wed Apr 06 12:41:05 CDT 2005

"...MCAP can eventually rise to the level of prestige that come with
demanding certifications like Cisco's CCIE."

You see Neil, now *THAT* is *FUNNY*! You can't make up comedy like that in
your mouldy basement - thats for sure.

"Neil" wrote:

> http://www.mcpmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=789
>
> --
> Neil MCNGP#30
>
> - Friction is a drag.
>

rowdyyatesmcngp
Wed Apr 06 12:47:02 CDT 2005

Sorry I just see lame money grab opp for Microsoft here..

We already have MBA's and PMI's and for the really career oriended, Sigma Six.

There is nothing to see here, movin' along folks..

:-(

"blastingfonda" wrote:

> Whoops, I hastily read the article in question and thought it was aimed
> more at mid-level IT managers & such, specifically the part that it
> would emphasize "objectives as project management, decision making and
> oral and verbal communication."
>
> That "verbal and oral communication" part basically excludes the entire
> Indian subcontinent. And I don't think people are going to be able to
> braindump for this cert. <g>
>
>

blastingfonda
Wed Apr 06 15:41:34 CDT 2005

CBIC wrote:

> I would think they could take it in their native language. Just
because
> someone doesn't speak english as thier native language doensn't mean
they
> aren't technically capable. You're spot on with the dumping part
though.
> --
> aka
> Doom MCNGP #38
> How in the hell did you get access to a computer?
> www.mcngp.com invented the internet

It may sound a little racist, but I'm talking more about recent
arrivals in the U.S. with work visas but who don't know English yet are
snatching up IT jobs. I've had to work with a number of them (not just
form India but SE Asia and Russia), and oftentimes the inability to of
these guys to communicate in simple English sentences would cause huge
work stoppages, and some of these guys had been in the U.S. for years.
Their lack of English was so embarassing that the company made a
conscious effort to keep these guys from interfacing directly with the
clients as much as possible.

The ability to speak a native language well is a necessity for doing
business. I wouldn't attempt to move to India and attempt to find work
there if I didn't at least make an attempt to learn the language
properly. But no one - least of all U.S. hiring managers - seem to care
about bringing them over here as long as the labor is cheap.

CBIC
Wed Apr 06 15:55:03 CDT 2005

> The ability to speak a native language well is a necessity for doing
> business. I wouldn't attempt to move to India and attempt to find
> work there if I didn't at least make an attempt to learn the language
> properly. But no one - least of all U.S. hiring managers - seem to
> care about bringing them over here as long as the labor is cheap.

I agree with you. When you are in a country working or visiting you should
speak the language not expect them to know yours. I don't go to Mexico and
get mad if they don't speak English. If people want to work in the US they
should speak English. If they're in France they should know French. I made a
call to a credit card company the other night and was greeted by an accent
so thick you couldn't have cut it with a knife saying "Good morning thank
you for calling so and so". This was 8:00 in the evening. I asked to speak
to someone I could understand and 3 people later I got somebody I could talk
to. I refuse to deal with people I can't understand and I hope everyone else
will do the same so the US companies will wise up. There's nothing wrong
with having a call center in India or China or wherever but have them
service areas that speak whatever language they speak.
--
aka
Doom MCNGP #38
How in the hell did you get access to a computer?
Please do not be to sending email to spam.thisbiotch@gmail.com
I am to be thanking you muchly.

blastingfonda
Wed Apr 06 16:07:08 CDT 2005

CBIC wrote:

> I refuse to deal with people I can't understand and I hope everyone
else
> will do the same so the US companies will wise up. There's nothing
wrong
> with having a call center in India or China or wherever but have them

> service areas that speak whatever language they speak.

Agreed. The lack of English skills is way more annoying to me than the
fact that they are allegedly replacing U.S. jobs.

Briscobar
Wed Apr 06 16:30:32 CDT 2005

In news:gP-dnRO824s60cnfRVn-qw@prairiewave.com,
CBIC <spam.thisbiotch@gmail.com> rambled:
>> The ability to speak a native language well is a necessity for doing
>> business. I wouldn't attempt to move to India and attempt to find
>> work there if I didn't at least make an attempt to learn the language
>> properly. But no one - least of all U.S. hiring managers - seem to
>> care about bringing them over here as long as the labor is cheap.
>
> I agree with you. When you are in a country working or visiting you
> should speak the language not expect them to know yours. I don't go
> to Mexico and get mad if they don't speak English. If people want to
> work in the US they should speak English. If they're in France they
> should know French. I made a call to a credit card company the other
> night and was greeted by an accent so thick you couldn't have cut it
> with a knife saying "Good morning thank you for calling so and so".
> This was 8:00 in the evening. I asked to speak to someone I could
> understand and 3 people later I got somebody I could talk to. I
> refuse to deal with people I can't understand and I hope everyone
> else will do the same so the US companies will wise up. There's
> nothing wrong with having a call center in India or China or wherever
> but have them service areas that speak whatever language they speak.

Also, just for the record, the United States has no official language. While
I'm not a fan of not being able to understand my neighbors, coworkers, or
Univision, English is no more official than Spanish in this country. It's
more widely used, but it's by no means official. What you're proposing is
merely conforming to society rather than following a rule. This is different
than you going to Mexico and not knowing a lick of Spanish. You are expected
(by society and the Mexican government) to do any business you have to do in
Spanish. Not the case here in the US. Just because things are done in
English doesn't mean things *have* to be done in English.

I'm just sayin....

--

KB - MCNGP "silent thug" #26

Briscobar AT gmail DOT com

Is www.mcngp.com experienced? Well I am...

blastingfonda
Wed Apr 06 16:47:14 CDT 2005

Briscobar wrote:

> In all fairness, whenever you call a tech support number and get an
Indian,
> they're not in Texas or NY or Califoria or Iowa. They're in India.
You
> should thank them for speaking English, which surely isn't their
first
> language.

They should be thanking us for providing them jobs.

Why should we thank them for providing customer service in our
language?

Funny how the bar has been lowered from American, English speaking tech
support reps (who admittedly were pretty technically piss poor) of ten
years ago to tech support reps of today who cannot speak well or even
be understood.

If an Indian is hired to provide techincal support for English-speakers
by, say, Microsoft or Dell, they should have a solid grasp of the
English language or the companies that build these call centers in
India should teach them English. Otherwise they are not capable of
providing adequate customer service.

Briscobar
Wed Apr 06 16:26:31 CDT 2005

In news:gP-dnRO824s60cnfRVn-qw@prairiewave.com,
CBIC <spam.thisbiotch@gmail.com> rambled:
>> The ability to speak a native language well is a necessity for doing
>> business. I wouldn't attempt to move to India and attempt to find
>> work there if I didn't at least make an attempt to learn the language
>> properly. But no one - least of all U.S. hiring managers - seem to
>> care about bringing them over here as long as the labor is cheap.
>
> I agree with you. When you are in a country working or visiting you
> should speak the language not expect them to know yours. I don't go
> to Mexico and get mad if they don't speak English. If people want to
> work in the US they should speak English. If they're in France they
> should know French. I made a call to a credit card company the other
> night and was greeted by an accent so thick you couldn't have cut it
> with a knife saying "Good morning thank you for calling so and so".
> This was 8:00 in the evening. I asked to speak to someone I could
> understand and 3 people later I got somebody I could talk to. I
> refuse to deal with people I can't understand and I hope everyone
> else will do the same so the US companies will wise up. There's
> nothing wrong with having a call center in India or China or wherever
> but have them service areas that speak whatever language they speak.

In all fairness, whenever you call a tech support number and get an Indian,
they're not in Texas or NY or Califoria or Iowa. They're in India. You
should thank them for speaking English, which surely isn't their first
language.

--

KB - MCNGP "silent thug" #26

Briscobar AT gmail DOT com

www.mcngp.com iz t3h h0tn3ss

blastingfonda
Wed Apr 06 17:03:19 CDT 2005

Briscobar wrote:
> Also, just for the record, the United States has no official
language. While
> I'm not a fan of not being able to understand my neighbors,
coworkers, or
> Univision, English is no more official than Spanish in this country.
It's
> more widely used, but it's by no means official. What you're
proposing is
> merely conforming to society rather than following a rule. This is
different
> than you going to Mexico and not knowing a lick of Spanish. You are
expected
> (by society and the Mexican government) to do any business you have
to do in
> Spanish. Not the case here in the US. Just because things are done in
> English doesn't mean things *have* to be done in English.
>
> I'm just sayin....

No, what I'm proposing is that the individuals who want to provide
customer service or technical support services that require verbal or
written communication do so in the language that the customer who is
paying for the service speaks. The paying customer is entitled to that
- and yes, the customer always is right.

The U.S. govt spends $1.5 billion annually on teaching English to
others. It may not be a national language, but a hell of a lot of
taxpayer money is going towards making sure others can speak our
language.

Now, if I wanted to market a product such as Univision to a Spanish
audience, I'd learn Spanish. Why is it hard to understand that vendors
who sell products to Americans who speak English should hire reps who
can speak English?

blastingfonda
Wed Apr 06 15:53:23 CDT 2005

blastingfonda wrote:
> and oftentimes the inability to of
> these guys to communicate in simple English sentences would cause
huge
> work stoppages, and some of these guys had been in the U.S. for
years.

Of course, I lack this ability as well sometimes. ;-)

JaR
Wed Apr 06 17:02:00 CDT 2005

In microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, Briscobar climbed on a soapbox &
opined:

> In all fairness, whenever you call a tech support number and get an
> Indian, they're not in Texas or NY or Califoria or Iowa. They're in
> India. You should thank them for speaking English, which surely isn't
> their first language

Whoa, whoa, whoa! I do not speak Hindi, nor do I have any intention of
learning it so I can converse with a support agent for a product or service
that I have paid for! Forgetting any part of the exported jobs arguments,
they are hired by companies to provide tech support to English-speaking
customers. As a customer, I demand that they do so, and so should anyone
else that is sick of the sub-standard support that is the norm these days.
Then and only then will companies cease hiring to the lowest common
denominator.

Also, FWIW, English *is* one of the so called "official" languages of
India.

--
JaR
Thug 10110
Click on MCNGP.com and start an argument!

catwalker63
Wed Apr 06 22:57:17 CDT 2005

BTW: As a security professional, can you give me some advice on how to
break into that area of IT. Right now I have 7 years experience as a
systems administrator supporting a variety of platforms and even some
phone systems. I also have my bachelors and I'm two security exams away
from my MCSE in 2000. What I don't really have is security specialty
experience and I'm wondering if you have any insights for where I could
get some, what hiring managers in this field are looking for, etc. Also,
do you know anyone else I can talk to about this field. I'm not fishing
for a job, just some direction. Security is ultimately where I'd like to
be.

--
Catwalker
aka Pu$$y Feet
BS, MCP, MCSA
MCNGP #43
www.mcngp.com
faq.mcngp.com

?If man could be crossed with the cat, it would improve man, but it would
deteriorate the cat.? Mark Twain

Ben
Thu Apr 07 01:56:53 CDT 2005

In article <Xns9630D529F2C28catwalker63athotmail@216.196.97.136>,
_catwalker63_@hotmamamail.com says...
> BTW: As a security professional, can you give me some advice on how to
> break into that area of IT. Right now I have 7 years experience as a
> systems administrator supporting a variety of platforms and even some
> phone systems. I also have my bachelors and I'm two security exams away
> from my MCSE in 2000. What I don't really have is security specialty
> experience and I'm wondering if you have any insights for where I could
> get some, what hiring managers in this field are looking for, etc. Also,
> do you know anyone else I can talk to about this field. I'm not fishing
> for a job, just some direction. Security is ultimately where I'd like to
> be.
>
>

Security is a big space. What part of security interests you?

catwalker63
Thu Apr 07 07:38:58 CDT 2005

Ben Smith <benjaminwsmith@hotmail.com> prattled ceaslessly in
news:MPG.1cbe7993a9d2cc859896cc@msnews.microsoft.com:

> In article <Xns9630D529F2C28catwalker63athotmail@216.196.97.136>,
> _catwalker63_@hotmamamail.com says...
>> BTW: As a security professional, can you give me some advice on how
>> to break into that area of IT. Right now I have 7 years experience
>> as a systems administrator supporting a variety of platforms and even
>> some phone systems. I also have my bachelors and I'm two security
>> exams away from my MCSE in 2000. What I don't really have is
>> security specialty experience and I'm wondering if you have any
>> insights for where I could get some, what hiring managers in this
>> field are looking for, etc. Also, do you know anyone else I can talk
>> to about this field. I'm not fishing for a job, just some direction.
>> Security is ultimately where I'd like to be.
>>
>>
>
> Security is a big space. What part of security interests you?
>

I guess what attracts me the most is the variety and the complexity. I
see it as an area I can explore for a long time and not get bored. I
like puzzles and challenges. I don't really have enough experience to
really point to a specific area yet. What experience I do have is with
the Windows operating system but there's so much more to explore. From
this side, intrusion detection and forensics looks mighty interesting.

--
Catwalker
aka Pu$$y Feet
BS, MCP, MCSA
MCNGP #43
www.mcngp.com
faq.mcngp.com

?If man could be crossed with the cat, it would improve man, but it would
deteriorate the cat.? Mark Twain

CBIC
Thu Apr 07 07:53:28 CDT 2005

> Also, just for the record, the United States has no official
> language.

I was not aware that English was not the official language in the US. I
assumed because I was required to take an English class every year I was in
school and any other language was an option that English was the official
language. But you know what happens when one assumes. Thanks for pointing
that out.
--
aka
Doom MCNGP #38
How in the hell did you get access to a computer?
Please do not be to sending email to spam.thisbiotch@gmail.com
I am to be thanking you muchly.

Briscobar
Thu Apr 07 08:05:22 CDT 2005

In news:1112824034.400710.142380@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com,
blastingfonda <blastingfonda@gmail.com> rambled:
>
> If an Indian is hired to provide techincal support for
> English-speakers by, say, Microsoft or Dell, they should have a solid
> grasp of the English language or the companies that build these call
> centers in India should teach them English. Otherwise they are not
> capable of providing adequate customer service.

I agree, but that is no fault of the employee. If Dell is providing support
to primarily English-speaking countries, shouldn't Dell be more thourough in
their hiring process? Don't take it out on the Indian/whatever.

This is not to say that I love it when Raman Nhoodl comes over here from New
Delhi and takes a job that could go to me. I don't love it. But it's not
*his* fault that he's going to get hired before I am.

--

KB - MCNGP "silent thug" #26

Briscobar AT gmail DOT com

4 out of 5 dentists recommend www.mcngp.com

LnkWizard
Thu Apr 07 08:15:27 CDT 2005


"catwalker63" <_catwalker63_@hotmamamail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns96313978BDA2Ccatwalker63athotmail@216.196.97.136...
>
<snipped>
>
> I guess what attracts me the most is the variety and the complexity. I
> see it as an area I can explore for a long time and not get bored. I
> like puzzles and challenges. I don't really have enough experience to
> really point to a specific area yet. What experience I do have is with
> the Windows operating system but there's so much more to explore. From
> this side, intrusion detection and forensics looks mighty interesting.
>
<more snippage>
>
Been reading a book on computer/data systems forensics and it has
been supremely fascinating. A lot of nitpicking in the details of how
to do it for the legal eagles but it still looks like a fun place to be.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Lnkwizard2 MCNGP 2^5

http://www.mcngp.com
"He who does not test himself is worthless indeed"
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Briscobar
Thu Apr 07 08:17:08 CDT 2005

In news:Xns963098EEE18FFplentespamsuxsofthom@207.46.248.16,
JaR <plente@spamsuxsofthome.net> rambled:
> In microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, Briscobar climbed on a soapbox &
> opined:
>
>> In all fairness, whenever you call a tech support number and get an
>> Indian, they're not in Texas or NY or Califoria or Iowa. They're in
>> India. You should thank them for speaking English, which surely isn't
>> their first language
>
> Whoa, whoa, whoa! I do not speak Hindi, nor do I have any intention
> of learning it so I can converse with a support agent for a product
> or service that I have paid for! Forgetting any part of the exported
> jobs arguments, they are hired by companies to provide tech support
> to English-speaking customers. As a customer, I demand that they do
> so, and so should anyone else that is sick of the sub-standard
> support that is the norm these days. Then and only then will
> companies cease hiring to the lowest common denominator.

Complain to Dell, Microsoft, et al. You're saying it's the employee's
*fault* he got hired to provide support? Silly notion. It's the employer's
fault. For 1) pinching pennies if they don't have to and 2) providing
sub-par support to their widest customer base.

I yell at my grandmother all the time for this: "They're in this country,
they should speak my language!" Melting pot, my ass. This country is full of
intolerant, lazy people who want everything their way. People don't want a
melting pot. Maybe it's just an archaic ideal, I don't know. But seeing as
the US hasn't made English official, nevermind mandatory, I think everyone
should shut up and quit bitching about people who are here (legally) from
another country who have not yet learned *your* language. Do you really give
a sh!t if the dishwasher at your favorite restaurant only speaks Portugese?
It's not a problem until you rear end him at a traffic light and have to
spend 45 minutes asking for his license. Sorry, bub, for the freaking
inconvenience. Does he have less of a right to do anything you can do simply
because he doesn't speak your language? You better not say yes, or I'll hunt
you down.

>
> Also, FWIW, English *is* one of the so called "official" languages of
> India.



--

KB - MCNGP "silent thug" #26

Briscobar AT gmail DOT com

www.mcngp.com owes me 35 bucks.

Briscobar
Thu Apr 07 08:21:01 CDT 2005

In news:1112824999.834957.136260@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com,
blastingfonda <blastingfonda@gmail.com> rambled:
>
> Now, if I wanted to market a product such as Univision to a Spanish
> audience, I'd learn Spanish. Why is it hard to understand that vendors
> who sell products to Americans who speak English should hire reps who
> can speak English?


Heh, that's the first time I've heard any of you say it right: it's the
VENDORS, or rather, any company who is providing you with sub-par service
due to a language barrier, who is at fault here, not the employees
themselves. Don't you think the tech support helldesk people would rather
help (for example) Indian customers? Of course they would, but it's not an
option for them. Apparently, they don't have to learn English very well to
get hired to do tech support for a US company. If they don't have to, why
bother?

--

KB - MCNGP "silent thug" #26

Briscobar AT gmail DOT com

www.mcngp.com is best for all new updates than
www.groups.yahoo.com/group/mcngp.

Keyboard
Thu Apr 07 09:26:00 CDT 2005


>>
>>> In all fairness, whenever you call a tech support
number and get an
>>> Indian, they're not in Texas or NY or Califoria or
Iowa. They're in
>>> India. You should thank them for speaking English,
which surely isn't
>>> their first language
>>
>> Whoa, whoa, whoa! I do not speak Hindi, nor do I have
any intention
>> of learning it so I can converse with a support agent
for a product
>> or service that I have paid for! Forgetting any part of
the exported
>> jobs arguments, they are hired by companies to provide
tech support
>> to English-speaking customers. As a customer, I demand
that they do
>> so, and so should anyone else that is sick of the sub-
standard
>> support that is the norm these days. Then and only then
will
>> companies cease hiring to the lowest common denominator.
>
>Complain to Dell, Microsoft, et al. You're saying it's
the employee's
>*fault* he got hired to provide support? Silly notion.
It's the employer's
>fault. For 1) pinching pennies if they don't have to and
2) providing
>sub-par support to their widest customer base.
>
>I yell at my grandmother all the time for this: "They're
in this country,
>they should speak my language!" Melting pot, my ass. This
country is full of
>intolerant, lazy people who want everything their way.
People don't want a
>melting pot. Maybe it's just an archaic ideal, I don't
know. But seeing as
>the US hasn't made English official, nevermind mandatory,
I think everyone
>should shut up and quit bitching about people who are
here (legally) from
>another country who have not yet learned *your* language.
Do you really give
>a sh!t if the dishwasher at your favorite restaurant only
speaks Portugese?
>It's not a problem until you rear end him at a traffic
light and have to
>spend 45 minutes asking for his license. Sorry, bub, for
the freaking
>inconvenience. Does he have less of a right to do
anything you can do simply
>because he doesn't speak your language? You better not
say yes, or I'll hunt
>you down.
>

For my two cents...

Yes, by god, if you live in this country, you better be
able to speak and read at least SOME english. Whether it
is declared the "official" language or not... 99% of the
traffic signs are written in ENGLISH! If you are going to
drive, you better damn well know how to read the signs.
Half the problem we have here in our area are the damn
immigrant parents that don't speak a word of english...
so their kids end up running the household. That is a
recipe for disaster. So, yes, if you are going to live in
our society... you better be prepared to communicate with
it. That, or pack up and move to canada (sorry neil).

And a general point of fact: all those that disagree with
me are commies. lol

JaR
Thu Apr 07 10:22:03 CDT 2005

In microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, Briscobar climbed on a soapbox &
opined:

> and so should anyone else that is sick of the sub-standard
>> support that is the norm these days. Then and only then will
>> companies cease hiring to the lowest common denominator.
>
> Complain to Dell, Microsoft, et al. You're saying it's the employee's
> *fault* he got hired to provide support? Silly notion. It's the
> employer's fault. For 1) pinching pennies if they don't have to and 2)
> providing sub-par support to their widest customer base.

Read my post all the way through before you respond, please. I included
the relevant part above, for your convenience.

As far as your "melting pot" goes, IDGAF what the so-called official
language of this Ghodsbedamned country is, English is, and has been the
predominantly spoken language of the land for some two hundred years. At
some point in the future, it may well again be Spanish, or Mandarin, or
whatever. That I will leave as a discussion for my grandkids. English is
also the international language of business, for whatever that is worth.

IMNSHO, the push for so-called diversity in this country will have the
opposite effect to the one intended. We should all be celebrating the
fact that we are *Americans*, regardless of the countries or races of our
origins. Not African, German, Chinese, Mexican, Pakistani, or
Portufsckingese Americans! Our motto is "E Pluribus Unum" not "E Pluribus
Pluribus"

For those of our gentle readers that are intellectually challenged, The
motto means = "From many, One"

--
JaR
Thug 10110
Click on MCNGP.com for the latest political upheavals!

Keyboard
Thu Apr 07 10:35:54 CDT 2005


>-----Original Message-----
>In microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, Briscobar climbed on
a soapbox &
>opined:
>
>> and so should anyone else that is sick of the sub-
standard
>>> support that is the norm these days. Then and only
then will
>>> companies cease hiring to the lowest common
denominator.
>>
>> Complain to Dell, Microsoft, et al. You're saying it's
the employee's
>> *fault* he got hired to provide support? Silly notion.
It's the
>> employer's fault. For 1) pinching pennies if they don't
have to and 2)
>> providing sub-par support to their widest customer base.
>
>Read my post all the way through before you respond,
please. I included
>the relevant part above, for your convenience.
>
>As far as your "melting pot" goes, IDGAF what the so-
called official
>language of this Ghodsbedamned country is, English is,
and has been the
>predominantly spoken language of the land for some two
hundred years. At
>some point in the future, it may well again be Spanish,
or Mandarin, or
>whatever. That I will leave as a discussion for my
grandkids. English is
>also the international language of business, for whatever
that is worth.
>
>IMNSHO, the push for so-called diversity in this country
will have the
>opposite effect to the one intended. We should all be
celebrating the
>fact that we are *Americans*, regardless of the countries
or races of our
>origins. Not African, German, Chinese, Mexican,
Pakistani, or
>Portufsckingese Americans! Our motto is "E Pluribus Unum"
not "E Pluribus
>Pluribus"
>
>For those of our gentle readers that are intellectually
challenged, The
>motto means = "From many, One"
>
>--
>JaR
>Thug 10110
>Click on MCNGP.com for the latest political upheavals!
>.
>


Also, IIRC, The Constitution was written in English. If
you can't read it, you can't abide by it. If you can't
abide by it, leave.

CBIC
Thu Apr 07 10:44:35 CDT 2005

> Also, IIRC, The Constitution was written in English. If
> you can't read it, you can't abide by it. If you can't
> abide by it, leave.

I have a feeling Billy W will be stopping by any minute now.
--
aka
Doom MCNGP #38
How in the hell did you get access to a computer?
Please do not be to sending email to spam.thisbiotch@gmail.com
I am to be thanking you muchly.

Keyboard
Thu Apr 07 10:51:18 CDT 2005


>-----Original Message-----
>> Also, IIRC, The Constitution was written in English. If
>> you can't read it, you can't abide by it. If you can't
>> abide by it, leave.
>
>I have a feeling Billy W will be stopping by any minute
now.
>--

That sheep lover don't scare me...

unless he is wearing a skirt..er..uhm..kilt... THEN he
scares me.

Ben
Thu Apr 07 16:37:51 CDT 2005

In article <Xns96313978BDA2Ccatwalker63athotmail@216.196.97.136>,
_catwalker63_@hotmamamail.com says...
> Ben Smith <benjaminwsmith@hotmail.com> prattled ceaslessly in
> news:MPG.1cbe7993a9d2cc859896cc@msnews.microsoft.com:
>
> > In article <Xns9630D529F2C28catwalker63athotmail@216.196.97.136>,
> > _catwalker63_@hotmamamail.com says...
> >> BTW: As a security professional, can you give me some advice on how
> >> to break into that area of IT. Right now I have 7 years experience
> >> as a systems administrator supporting a variety of platforms and even
> >> some phone systems. I also have my bachelors and I'm two security
> >> exams away from my MCSE in 2000. What I don't really have is
> >> security specialty experience and I'm wondering if you have any
> >> insights for where I could get some, what hiring managers in this
> >> field are looking for, etc. Also, do you know anyone else I can talk
> >> to about this field. I'm not fishing for a job, just some direction.
> >> Security is ultimately where I'd like to be.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Security is a big space. What part of security interests you?
> >
>
> I guess what attracts me the most is the variety and the complexity. I
> see it as an area I can explore for a long time and not get bored. I
> like puzzles and challenges. I don't really have enough experience to
> really point to a specific area yet. What experience I do have is with
> the Windows operating system but there's so much more to explore. From
> this side, intrusion detection and forensics looks mighty interesting.
>

Forensics is a very rapidly growing field, training is required on
tools, like NCase, and a very strong knowledge of system internals (file
systems, disk geometry, etc...) is required. Community colleges are
starting to create some good programs for the entry level training
needed.

IDS is sort of a dead end in security. It is interesting, but not wholly
useful.

Operating system and application security is a the biggest field,
especially databse and web security.

Security is a lot like a foreign language - just speaking a foreign
language does not meaning much, but coupling it with a skill, like
finance, can lead to a highly lucrative job. Likewise, unless you want
to compete with people like me for jobs (which you likely don't), you
need to couple security with some other in-demand skill.

blastingfonda
Thu Apr 07 17:37:57 CDT 2005


Briscobar wrote:

> I agree, but that is no fault of the employee. If Dell is providing
support
> to primarily English-speaking countries, shouldn't Dell be more
thourough in
> their hiring process? Don't take it out on the Indian/whatever.
>
> This is not to say that I love it when Raman Nhoodl comes over here
from New
> Delhi and takes a job that could go to me. I don't love it. But it's
not
> *his* fault that he's going to get hired before I am.

Yup, I'm not blaming the employees at all. When I was talking earlier
about the immigrants who were brought here on work visas, I also wasn't
blaming them for a lack of English skills. But anyone could see within
5 minutes to talking to them that they were virtually unintelligible,
and any manager who would offer a software engineer job to an
individual just because they were willing to code Perl for $35,000 a
year should burn in hell.

blastingfonda
Thu Apr 07 17:46:32 CDT 2005


Briscobar wrote:

> Heh, that's the first time I've heard any of you say it right: it's
the
> VENDORS, or rather, any company who is providing you with sub-par
service
> due to a language barrier, who is at fault here, not the employees
> themselves. Don't you think the tech support helldesk people would
rather
> help (for example) Indian customers? Of course they would, but it's
not an
> option for them. Apparently, they don't have to learn English very
well to
> get hired to do tech support for a US company. If they don't have to,
why
> bother?

This was sort of my point all along. I never blamed the employees. It's
poor management decisions and ultimately greed (...in the form of cost
cutting...) that's driving large companies to ship jobs overseas, but
it's also resulting in inferior customer service. And if you can't
understand the person you are speaking with on the tech support line,
what recourse do you have? Complain to their supervisor? Write a letter
to Dell? Stop buying Microsoft products? At least as far as Microsoft
is concerned, they're the only game in town supporting Windows OSes, so
you are basically locked into Rahjeeb's pidgin-English level 1 support.

Maybe we should all learn Indian. :-P

catwalker63
Thu Apr 07 18:36:09 CDT 2005

Ben Smith <benjaminwsmith@hotmail.com> prattled ceaslessly in
news:MPG.1cbf480421de5dc99896cd@msnews.microsoft.com:

>
> Forensics is a very rapidly growing field, training is required on
> tools, like NCase, and a very strong knowledge of system internals
> (file systems, disk geometry, etc...) is required. Community colleges
> are starting to create some good programs for the entry level training
> needed.
>
> IDS is sort of a dead end in security. It is interesting, but not
> wholly useful.
>
> Operating system and application security is a the biggest field,
> especially databse and web security.
>
> Security is a lot like a foreign language - just speaking a foreign
> language does not meaning much, but coupling it with a skill, like
> finance, can lead to a highly lucrative job. Likewise, unless you want
> to compete with people like me for jobs (which you likely don't), you
> need to couple security with some other in-demand skill.
>

Which community colleges? And would project management be an in-demand
skill in your opinion? I don't have real experience yet, so I'm not
ready to compete on your level. Someday, maybe. <g> Right now I want
to know what it takes to get in on the ground level somewhere. What are
hiring managers looking for in entry level security positions and what
kinds of positions are there? How should I market myself?

--
Catwalker
aka Pu$$y Feet
BS, MCP, MCSA
MCNGP #43
www.mcngp.com
faq.mcngp.com

?If man could be crossed with the cat, it would improve man, but it
would deteriorate the cat.? Mark Twain

Ben
Thu Apr 07 20:09:37 CDT 2005

In article <E8401C27-69D7-4628-99C3-C1014C2D24D3@microsoft.com>,
rowdyyatesmcngp@REMOVEhotmail.com says...
> "...MCAP can eventually rise to the level of prestige that come with
> demanding certifications like Cisco's CCIE."
>
> You see Neil, now *THAT* is *FUNNY*! You can't make up comedy like that in
> your mouldy basement - thats for sure.

The Architect program will greatly exceed the prestige of the CCIE.

No joke.

> "Neil" wrote:
>
> > http://www.mcpmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=789
> >
> > --
> > Neil MCNGP#30
> >
> > - Friction is a drag.
> >
>

Ben
Thu Apr 07 20:16:28 CDT 2005

In article <Xns9631A8E44E839catwalker63athotmail@216.196.97.136>,
_catwalker63_@hotmamamail.com says...
> Ben Smith <benjaminwsmith@hotmail.com> prattled ceaslessly in
> news:MPG.1cbf480421de5dc99896cd@msnews.microsoft.com:
>
> >
> > Forensics is a very rapidly growing field, training is required on
> > tools, like NCase, and a very strong knowledge of system internals
> > (file systems, disk geometry, etc...) is required. Community colleges
> > are starting to create some good programs for the entry level training
> > needed.
> >
> > IDS is sort of a dead end in security. It is interesting, but not
> > wholly useful.
> >
> > Operating system and application security is a the biggest field,
> > especially databse and web security.
> >
> > Security is a lot like a foreign language - just speaking a foreign
> > language does not meaning much, but coupling it with a skill, like
> > finance, can lead to a highly lucrative job. Likewise, unless you want
> > to compete with people like me for jobs (which you likely don't), you
> > need to couple security with some other in-demand skill.
> >
>
> Which community colleges?

Where are you?

> And would project management be an in-demand
> skill in your opinion?

Always! Most project managers are not very good - they are more like
babysitters. PMI certification will get you into decent project
management jobs.

One key attribute about good project managers is that they don't sign on
to doomed projects (namely those without clear goals, metrics, and exit
criteria). Learning to spot doomed projects is how you pay your dues.


> I don't have real experience yet, so I'm not
> ready to compete on your level. Someday, maybe. <g> Right now I want
> to know what it takes to get in on the ground level somewhere. What are
> hiring managers looking for in entry level security positions and what
> kinds of positions are there? How should I market myself?

With security - a base understanding of how security is about risk. Core
technical knowledge basic security and TCP/IP, familiarity with
firewalls and routers, basic problem management and troubleshooting.


I am working on a project for the National Science Foundation right now
to develop a complete list of skills for security jobs. It will be ready
around October.

catwalker63
Thu Apr 07 20:27:00 CDT 2005

Ben Smith <benjaminwsmith@hotmail.com> prattled ceaslessly in
news:MPG.1cbf7b4bcb31df3c9896cf@msnews.microsoft.com:

> In article <Xns9631A8E44E839catwalker63athotmail@216.196.97.136>,
> _catwalker63_@hotmamamail.com says...
>> Which community colleges?
>
> Where are you?

Seattle(ish)

> One key attribute about good project managers is that they don't sign
> on to doomed projects (namely those without clear goals, metrics, and
> exit criteria). Learning to spot doomed projects is how you pay your
> dues.

Thanks for that tip!

>
> With security - a base understanding of how security is about risk.
> Core technical knowledge basic security and TCP/IP, familiarity with
> firewalls and routers, basic problem management and troubleshooting.

Would Cisco certification be valuable here? If so, which cert do you
like best?

> I am working on a project for the National Science Foundation right
> now to develop a complete list of skills for security jobs. It will be
> ready around October.
>

Good to know. Where will it be available?

--
Catwalker
aka Pu$$y Feet
BS, MCP, MCSA
MCNGP #43
www.mcngp.com
faq.mcngp.com

?If man could be crossed with the cat, it would improve man, but it would
deteriorate the cat.? Mark Twain

Ben
Thu Apr 07 22:10:47 CDT 2005

In article <Xns9631BBAF52CEEcatwalker63athotmail@216.196.97.136>,
_catwalker63_@hotmamamail.com says...
> Ben Smith <benjaminwsmith@hotmail.com> prattled ceaslessly in
> news:MPG.1cbf7b4bcb31df3c9896cf@msnews.microsoft.com:
>
> > In article <Xns9631A8E44E839catwalker63athotmail@216.196.97.136>,
> > _catwalker63_@hotmamamail.com says...
> >> Which community colleges?
> >
> > Where are you?
>
> Seattle(ish)

Bellevue Community College is the best in the Seattle area, but I am not
sure how active they are in security. Edmunds Community College has some
good forensics people.

>
> > One key attribute about good project managers is that they don't sign
> > on to doomed projects (namely those without clear goals, metrics, and
> > exit criteria). Learning to spot doomed projects is how you pay your
> > dues.
>
> Thanks for that tip!
>
> >
> > With security - a base understanding of how security is about risk.
> > Core technical knowledge basic security and TCP/IP, familiarity with
> > firewalls and routers, basic problem management and troubleshooting.
>
> Would Cisco certification be valuable here? If so, which cert do you
> like best?

CCNA is good for general routing and switching knowledge, beyond that
unless you are doing Cisco-specific stuff, the other certs do not
present that much value.

>
> > I am working on a project for the National Science Foundation right
> > now to develop a complete list of skills for security jobs. It will be
> > ready around October.
> >
>
> Good to know. Where will it be available?

I will let you know.

>
>

catwalker63
Thu Apr 07 22:21:54 CDT 2005


Thank you. Also, what is your opinion of SANS certifications and training?

--
Catwalker
aka Pu$$y Feet
BS, MCP, MCSA
MCNGP #43
www.mcngp.com
faq.mcngp.com
"If man could be crossed with the cat, it would improve man, but it would
deteriorate the cat." Mark Twain

Ben
Fri Apr 08 13:50:17 CDT 2005

In article <Xns9631CF2A171D8catwalker63athotmail@216.196.97.136>,
_catwalker63_@hotmamamail.com says...
> Subject: Re: new cert coming
> From: catwalker63 <_catwalker63_@hotmamamail.com>
> Newsgroups: microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse
>
>
> Thank you. Also, what is your opinion of SANS certifications and training?
>
>

I am not a fan.

Neil
Fri Apr 08 13:59:14 CDT 2005

did you hear "blastingfonda" <blastingfonda@gmail.com> say in
news:1112821628.727538.246190@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

> The lack of English skills is way more annoying

you and I will never get along now...

(I have been told to read "eats shoots and leaves")

--
Neil MCNGP#30

- Orgasm: jumping to conclusions.

JaR
Fri Apr 08 14:13:24 CDT 2005

In microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, Neil climbed on a soapbox & opined:

> (I have been told to read "eats shoots and leaves")

Yes, you should.<BG>

I thought it was kinda fun.

Sadly, the folks that could most benefit from that book are also the least
likely to read it.

--
JaR
Thug 10110
Click on MCNGP.com when there's nothing better to do!

Neil
Fri Apr 08 14:22:51 CDT 2005

did you hear JaR <plente@spamsuxsofthome.net> say in
news:Xns96327C5A11F71plentespamsuxsofthom@207.46.248.16:

> Sadly, the folks that could most benefit from that book are also the
> least likely to read it.

like me..I was planning on picking up the book frmo the library this
weekend. (them panda's is good eatin I hear)

--
Neil MCNGP#30

- You cannot enter the same river once.

JaR
Fri Apr 08 14:29:37 CDT 2005

In microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, Neil climbed on a soapbox & opined:

> did you hear JaR <plente@spamsuxsofthome.net> say in
> news:Xns96327C5A11F71plentespamsuxsofthom@207.46.248.16:
>
>> Sadly, the folks that could most benefit from that book are also the
>> least likely to read it.
>
> like me..I was planning on picking up the book frmo the library this
> weekend. (them panda's is good eatin I hear)
>

Just be careful they're unarmed.

--
JaR
Thug 10110
Click on MCNGP.com and duck!

Neil
Fri Apr 08 14:54:48 CDT 2005

did you hear JaR <plente@spamsuxsofthome.net> say in
news:Xns96327F1A03760plentespamsuxsofthom@207.46.248.16:

> Just be careful they're unarmed.
>
> --
> JaR
> Thug 10110
> Click on MCNGP.com and duck!

I'm confused. do I eat the panda bears with no arms or do I eat the duck?

It seems awful unsportsmanlike to hunt bears that have no arms.

I suppose this is what happens to them after americans have been told they
have the right to bear arms - they just cut them off innocent pandas and
leave the dumb animal helpless in the wild...

--
Neil MCNGP#30

- "I just forgot to increment the counter," Tom said, nonplussed.

JaR
Fri Apr 08 16:17:11 CDT 2005

In microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, Neil climbed on a soapbox & opined:

> did you hear JaR <plente@spamsuxsofthome.net> say in
> news:Xns96327F1A03760plentespamsuxsofthom@207.46.248.16:
>
>> Just be careful they're unarmed.
>>
>> --
>> JaR
>> Thug 10110
>> Click on MCNGP.com and duck!
>
> I'm confused. do I eat the panda bears with no arms or do I eat the
> duck?
>
> It seems awful unsportsmanlike to hunt bears that have no arms.
>
> I suppose this is what happens to them after americans have been told
> they have the right to bear arms - they just cut them off innocent
> pandas and leave the dumb animal helpless in the wild...
>

I'm sorry. You'll have to make do with pre-packaged, frozen or canned
Panda. Or you'll have to make a safari to China. My caution was only in
regard to frozen panda arms, as the claws and elbows are undigestible.
Americans don't cotton to inferior, foreign made bear arms, by the way. I
have several Grizzlies and a Kodiak personally.

--
JaR
Thug 10110
Click on MCNGP.com if you really want to see bs!

Jtyc
Fri Apr 08 16:28:07 CDT 2005

> I am not a fan.

I am not a space heater.

Neil
Fri Apr 08 18:47:05 CDT 2005

did you hear JaR <plente@spamsuxsofthome.net> say in
news:Xns96329156E77Cplentespamsuxsofthom@207.46.248.16:

> I
> have several Grizzlies and a Kodiak personally.
>

but only from the right side of the animals, correct?

otherwise it would be "the left 2 bear arms"

--
Neil MCNGP#30

- Where there is a will, there is a won't.

JaR
Mon Apr 11 10:38:30 CDT 2005

In microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, Neil climbed on a soapbox & opined:

> did you hear JaR <plente@spamsuxsofthome.net> say in
> news:Xns96329156E77Cplentespamsuxsofthom@207.46.248.16:
>
>> I
>> have several Grizzlies and a Kodiak personally.
>>
>
> but only from the right side of the animals, correct?
>
> otherwise it would be "the left 2 bear arms"
>

Now you're just being silly!

--
JaR
Thug 10110
Click on MCNGP.com and ignore the silly people!

Neil
Mon Apr 11 10:45:02 CDT 2005

did you hear JaR <plente@spamsuxsofthome.net> say in
news:Xns963557ED17DD3plentespamsuxsofthom@207.46.248.16:

> Now you're just being silly!

and...?

--
Neil MCNGP#30

- Carl Sagan as a child: "There must be HUNDREDS of 'em!"

Briscobar
Mon Apr 11 11:04:32 CDT 2005

In news:Xns9632C940799A0neilmcsegmailcom@207.46.248.16,
Neil <guess!!!@gmail.com> rambled:
>
> but only from the right side of the animals, correct?
>
> otherwise it would be "the left 2 bear arms"

The Czech's in the male!

--

KB - MCNGP "I MADE FUNNY! thug" #26

Briscobar AT gmail DOT com

www.mcngp.com iz off da heezy fo sheezy

JaR
Mon Apr 11 11:18:27 CDT 2005

In microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, Briscobar climbed on a soapbox &
opined:

> In news:Xns9632C940799A0neilmcsegmailcom@207.46.248.16,
> Neil <guess!!!@gmail.com> rambled:
>>
>> but only from the right side of the animals, correct?
>>
>> otherwise it would be "the left 2 bear arms"
>
> The Czech's in the male!
>

*FWEEEET*

Ten yards and loss of down for invoking memory of mouldy, bad joke!

--
JaR
Thug 10110
Click on MCNGP.com and move the ball!

Davin
Sun May 29 01:57:21 CDT 2005

Eats, Shoots and Leaves is a great book!! My grandfather has it. I recommend
looking at it because it is quite funny.

Regards,
Davin Eastley

P.S. I'm just being silly. Ignore the part that says JaR spammed because he
didn't.

"JaR" <plente@spamsuxsofthome.net> spammed the newsgroup at
news:Xns96355EB29986Fplentespamsuxsofthom@207.46.248.16...
> In microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, Briscobar climbed on a box &
> jumped:
>
>> In news:Xns9632C940799A0neilmcsegmailcom@207.46.248.16,
>> Neil <bbguess!!!@gmail.com> rambled:
>>>
>>> but only from the right side of the animals, correct?
>>>
>>> otherwise it would be "the left 2 bear arms"
>>
>> The Czech's in the male!
>>
>
> *FWEEEET*
>
> Ten yards and loss of down for invoking memory of mouldy, bad joke!
>
> --
> JaR
> Thug 10110
> Click on MCNGP.com and move the ball!