My Exam Cram 2 book on 70-270 says you don't have to reapply service
packs if you install a new service on an XP Pro machine. However, I just
took a practice test yesterday that says you do. I am sure the test said
it was for the 70-270 test but it is clear that they just copied the
question from their Win2k pro test without updating it.

I would have no problem learning all this material if it weren't for all
the contradictory information out there. It is getting really
frustrating!!!

I even had a practice question asking about the alarm that goes off when
your laptop's power is too HIGH! And this was on a PreLogic test.

Re: Yet another contradiction by Robert

Robert
Mon Apr 11 12:22:02 CDT 2005

Grant Robertson wrote:
> My Exam Cram 2 book on 70-270 says you don't have to reapply service
> packs if you install a new service on an XP Pro machine. However, I
> just took a practice test yesterday that says you do. I am sure the
> test said it was for the 70-270 test but it is clear that they just
> copied the question from their Win2k pro test without updating it.
>
> I would have no problem learning all this material if it weren't for
> all the contradictory information out there. It is getting really
> frustrating!!!

Perhaps the thing to do is treat it like a serious student considering two
competing theories and do an experiment to see what happens. Then you'll
know the real answer, and you'll remember it too because of the investment
of effort you made in getting there.



Re: Yet another contradiction by Dragon

Dragon
Mon Apr 11 12:41:42 CDT 2005

I agree, but I do not believe it is always as simple as trying. For example
you may have an OS with SPx installed on it and you install another service.
Depending on the OS, SPx, Service and another Naturally occurring
phenomenon, you may not be able to tell if the new service is from the
original CD or the updated version from the SPx. It may even be possible
that service functions fine for a user for a particular use.

In this scenario it is always good to know what the developer says as well
as what answer the question is looking for.

"Robert Moir" <robspamtrap+msnews@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:uuoq6rrPFHA.3668@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
> Grant Robertson wrote:
>> My Exam Cram 2 book on 70-270 says you don't have to reapply service
>> packs if you install a new service on an XP Pro machine. However, I
>> just took a practice test yesterday that says you do. I am sure the
>> test said it was for the 70-270 test but it is clear that they just
>> copied the question from their Win2k pro test without updating it.
>>
>> I would have no problem learning all this material if it weren't for
>> all the contradictory information out there. It is getting really
>> frustrating!!!
>
> Perhaps the thing to do is treat it like a serious student considering two
> competing theories and do an experiment to see what happens. Then you'll
> know the real answer, and you'll remember it too because of the investment
> of effort you made in getting there.
>



Re: Yet another contradiction by SJ

SJ
Tue Apr 12 07:03:44 CDT 2005

I find that Exam Cram often has a few mistakes.
JMO

"Grant Robertson" <BOGUS@BOGUS.com> wrote in message
news:eibwlnrPFHA.1932@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> My Exam Cram 2 book on 70-270 says you don't have to reapply service
> packs if you install a new service on an XP Pro machine. However, I just
> took a practice test yesterday that says you do. I am sure the test said
> it was for the 70-270 test but it is clear that they just copied the
> question from their Win2k pro test without updating it.
>
> I would have no problem learning all this material if it weren't for all
> the contradictory information out there. It is getting really
> frustrating!!!
>
> I even had a practice question asking about the alarm that goes off when
> your laptop's power is too HIGH! And this was on a PreLogic test.



Re: Yet another contradiction by billLASTINIT

billLASTINIT
Tue Apr 12 08:23:08 CDT 2005

SJ wrote:
> I find that Exam Cram often has a few mistakes.
> JMO

And I find that Exam Cram rarely has many mistakes.

Re: Yet another contradiction by Grant

Grant
Tue Apr 12 09:37:59 CDT 2005

In article <uuoq6rrPFHA.3668@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl>,
robspamtrap+msnews@gmail.com says...
> Perhaps the thing to do is treat it like a serious student considering two
> competing theories and do an experiment to see what happens. Then you'll
> know the real answer, and you'll remember it too because of the investment
> of effort you made in getting there.

I've got 12 years experience as a network manager and I've been working
on computers since before there even was an IBM PC. Believe me, I know
that most of what any experienced network manager knows comes primarily
through experimentation. However, I also know full well that Microsoft is
not testing on what actually happens in the real world. If I went in and
took the test based only on my real world experiences I would fail it
miserably, as would any truly experienced network manager who had not
memorized the MS line of rhetoric and BS.

Besides, I am finding contradictions or inconsistencies in almost every
paragraph. It would take me years of research and experimentation to
figure out the actual correct answer to each of these items. By then the
information would be obsolete. When I pay someone for a study guide they
are getting my money in exchange for the promise of accuracy. The guide
should include every single piece of information I need to pass the test
and it should all be accurate to the test.

I have realized that most of the inconsistencies are between the book and
the darn PrepLogic tests. I have found so many questions on the sample
test that are just plain wrong that I have lost all trust in that
company's ability to tell their a** from a hole in the ground. I decided
it would actually be detrimental for me to continue using their practice
tests and deleted it from my computer.


Re: Yet another contradiction by zenner

zenner
Thu Apr 14 12:09:45 CDT 2005

Check the publish date of the manual then compare the last revised date of
the Guide.Take the explanation of the newer release.

As Technology has evolved, meaning, as MS has refined Hotfix, SP and update
downloads, installs...they have modified the requirements as well as the
need to re-install "fixes"...used in the generic sense.

As a long time professional, you probably forgot that books, manuals,
guides...etc.., are only valid as long as technology is static. The rate of
change has risen to the point that much documentation is obsolete, soon
after publication, sometimes...even before. Thus the reliance on "Help"
files, "Readme"...or the necessity to visit various vendor web sites when,
if you want the latest information.

This brings up one of my pet peeves. Most certification exams fail to advise
the candidate of which level of the software the test is based. Not a
problem in general, but when asking specific questions, as which screen or
command line strings are used ...it can make a lot of difference. I have
noted this kind of discrepancy on several occasions. Best bet is go with the
"general" release level....

If you are expecting to achieve a "perfect score" on an exam. you are
putting a lot of unnecessary pressure on yourself. In my general experience,
a few flaws keeps you honest. Don't want to get too invested in being
"right" at the expense of getting the job "done". It's possible to be "dead
right"! Kind'a like arguing with the CEO. you may prove your point, but they
might not care to hear about your 100% record at the new job you are
applying for!

"Grant Robertson" <BOGUS@BOGUS.com> wrote in message
news:eibwlnrPFHA.1932@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> My Exam Cram 2 book on 70-270 says you don't have to reapply service
> packs if you install a new service on an XP Pro machine. However, I just
> took a practice test yesterday that says you do. I am sure the test said
> it was for the 70-270 test but it is clear that they just copied the
> question from their Win2k pro test without updating it.
>
> I would have no problem learning all this material if it weren't for all
> the contradictory information out there. It is getting really
> frustrating!!!
>
> I even had a practice question asking about the alarm that goes off when
> your laptop's power is too HIGH! And this was on a PreLogic test.



Re: Yet another contradiction by Grant

Grant
Fri Apr 15 00:19:33 CDT 2005

In article <ttx7e.3399$dT4.2991@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com>,
Zenner@pacbell.net says...
> Check the publish date of the manual then compare the last revised date of
> the Guide.Take the explanation of the newer release.

I don't know which 'manual' you are talking about. If you haven't
noticed, Windows hasn't come with even a halfway comprehensive manual
since 3.11. Besides, the question isn't about what is the latest actual
information. It is about what is the latest fantasy MS wants me to
memorize for the test. When I can't even get the same version of the
fantasy from one chapter to another in a study guide or between the guide
and the practice test bound into that same volume, then I'd say the guide
is just about worthless.

> As a long time professional, you probably forgot that books, manuals,
> guides...etc.., are only valid as long as technology is static. The rate of
> change has risen to the point that much documentation is obsolete, soon
> after publication, sometimes...even before. Thus the reliance on "Help"
> files, "Readme"...or the necessity to visit various vendor web sites when,
> if you want the latest information.

As a long time professional I have forgotten nothing of the kind. It's
not as if I am still working on the same old DOS machines I started on. I
have to keep up with the technology just like anyone else. But when I pay
$30 for a book to help me cram for a test I expect it to be accurate to
the test it is supposedly helping me cram for.


> This brings up one of my pet peeves. Most certification exams fail to advise
> the candidate of which level of the software the test is based. Not a
> problem in general, but when asking specific questions, as which screen or
> command line strings are used ...it can make a lot of difference. I have
> noted this kind of discrepancy on several occasions. Best bet is go with the
> "general" release level....

Now you are getting it.


> If you are expecting to achieve a "perfect score" on an exam. you are
> putting a lot of unnecessary pressure on yourself.

I am not expecting to pass with a perfect score. However, I don't want to
fail because it was impossible to get accurate information to study.
Besides, with the vast number of entry level MCP's out there it would be
a nice addition to my resume to be able to brag about my score.


> In my general experience,
> a few flaws keeps you honest. Don't want to get too invested in being
> "right" at the expense of getting the job "done". It's possible to be "dead
> right"! Kind'a like arguing with the CEO. you may prove your point, but they
> might not care to hear about your 100% record at the new job you are
> applying for!

Yeah, I don't really need workplace advice. And I don't appreciate my
expectation of the availability of accurate information for an exam that
costs $125 to take and can make or break a career being compared to the
idiocy of getting fired for arguing with a CEO. It is insulting.

Re: Yet another contradiction by zenner

zenner
Fri Apr 15 10:08:54 CDT 2005

Seeing your point for what it is, I guess there is no hope for a solution
that will satisfy your problem.

We all know there are no in-house manuals provided with Ms products any
more...although I do have copies from win95 and early versions of NT...I
will accept they were not in general circulation.

The vacuum of MS provide hard copy manuals, as I mentioned, was filled by
third-parties and Online help manuals and/or Readme files, hotfixes,
etc...included on the disc and later on CD/DVD. There is some additional
effort involved in finding them, but as you complained, that too is
Microsofts fault.

I was wrong to offer a solution; such as checking the published and/or
revised date of 3rd-party manuals, study guides, etc. My excuse was a
mistaken assumption that you were seeking a solution, had possibly
overlooked the obvious basics of purchasing technical literature. Some times
people are distracted by shiney things or colourful cover art.

I see now your intent was mostly to complain, possibly provoke like minded
individuals to rally to your "cause"?
Since there is room for all, I'll just call it a day and let you go on your
merry way. Have fun with it.

12+ years experience is a long time. I would suggest it seemed even longer
to those around you.

Please offer my apologies to your co-workers, especially to any
subordinates.

"Grant Robertson" <BOGUS@BOGUS.com> wrote in message
news:u8zqzqXQFHA.1172@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> In article <ttx7e.3399$dT4.2991@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com>,
> Zenner@pacbell.net says...
>> Check the publish date of the manual then compare the last revised date
>> of
>> the Guide.Take the explanation of the newer release.
>
> I don't know which 'manual' you are talking about. If you haven't
> noticed, Windows hasn't come with even a halfway comprehensive manual
> since 3.11. Besides, the question isn't about what is the latest actual
> information. It is about what is the latest fantasy MS wants me to
> memorize for the test. When I can't even get the same version of the
> fantasy from one chapter to another in a study guide or between the guide
> and the practice test bound into that same volume, then I'd say the guide
> is just about worthless.
>
>> As a long time professional, you probably forgot that books, manuals,
>> guides...etc.., are only valid as long as technology is static. The rate
>> of
>> change has risen to the point that much documentation is obsolete, soon
>> after publication, sometimes...even before. Thus the reliance on "Help"
>> files, "Readme"...or the necessity to visit various vendor web sites
>> when,
>> if you want the latest information.
>
> As a long time professional I have forgotten nothing of the kind. It's
> not as if I am still working on the same old DOS machines I started on. I
> have to keep up with the technology just like anyone else. But when I pay
> $30 for a book to help me cram for a test I expect it to be accurate to
> the test it is supposedly helping me cram for.
>
>
>> This brings up one of my pet peeves. Most certification exams fail to
>> advise
>> the candidate of which level of the software the test is based. Not a
>> problem in general, but when asking specific questions, as which screen
>> or
>> command line strings are used ...it can make a lot of difference. I have
>> noted this kind of discrepancy on several occasions. Best bet is go with
>> the
>> "general" release level....
>
> Now you are getting it.
>
>
>> If you are expecting to achieve a "perfect score" on an exam. you are
>> putting a lot of unnecessary pressure on yourself.
>
> I am not expecting to pass with a perfect score. However, I don't want to
> fail because it was impossible to get accurate information to study.
> Besides, with the vast number of entry level MCP's out there it would be
> a nice addition to my resume to be able to brag about my score.
>
>
>> In my general experience,
>> a few flaws keeps you honest. Don't want to get too invested in being
>> "right" at the expense of getting the job "done". It's possible to be
>> "dead
>> right"! Kind'a like arguing with the CEO. you may prove your point, but
>> they
>> might not care to hear about your 100% record at the new job you are
>> applying for!
>
> Yeah, I don't really need workplace advice. And I don't appreciate my
> expectation of the availability of accurate information for an exam that
> costs $125 to take and can make or break a career being compared to the
> idiocy of getting fired for arguing with a CEO. It is insulting.



Re: Yet another contradiction by blastingfonda

blastingfonda
Fri Apr 15 13:12:24 CDT 2005

Dragon wrote:
> I agree, but I do not believe it is always as simple as trying. For
example
> you may have an OS with SPx installed on it and you install another
service.
> Depending on the OS, SPx, Service and another Naturally occurring
> phenomenon, you may not be able to tell if the new service is from
the
> original CD or the updated version from the SPx. It may even be
possible
> that service functions fine for a user for a particular use.
>
> In this scenario it is always good to know what the developer says as
well
> as what answer the question is looking for.

It does raise a few interesting questions. When you install Windows
Service Pack 2, does it install all .dll files and other system files,
even those used for services that you have yet to install? Or does it
selectively only install the updates and fixes for the services you
currently have installed?

If the first option is true, then if you install the service off
Windows XP RTM, is the installer smart enough to know not to replace
dlls with higher version numbers and newer dates with its own old dlls?
If it is, reinstallation of the service pack shouldn't ever be
necessary. Otherwise, you would have to install.


Re: Yet another contradiction by kpg

kpg
Fri Apr 15 13:21:05 CDT 2005


> It does raise a few interesting questions. When you install Windows
> Service Pack 2, does it install all .dll files and other system files,
> even those used for services that you have yet to install? Or does it
> selectively only install the updates and fixes for the services you
> currently have installed?
>
> If the first option is true, then if you install the service off
> Windows XP RTM, is the installer smart enough to know not to replace
> dlls with higher version numbers and newer dates with its own old dlls?
> If it is, reinstallation of the service pack shouldn't ever be
> necessary. Otherwise, you would have to install.

Things that make you go hmmmmm....



Re: Yet another contradiction by catwalker63

catwalker63
Fri Apr 15 15:19:13 CDT 2005

"zenner" <Zenner@pacbell.net> prattled ceaslessly in
news:aOQ7e.2640$t85.1896@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com:

> Seeing your point for what it is, I guess there is no hope for a
> solution that will satisfy your problem.
>
> We all know there are no in-house manuals provided with Ms products
> any more...although I do have copies from win95 and early versions of
> NT...I will accept they were not in general circulation.
>
> The vacuum of MS provide hard copy manuals, as I mentioned, was filled
> by third-parties and Online help manuals and/or Readme files,
> hotfixes, etc...included on the disc and later on CD/DVD. There is
> some additional effort involved in finding them, but as you
> complained, that too is Microsofts fault.
>
> I was wrong to offer a solution; such as checking the published and/or
> revised date of 3rd-party manuals, study guides, etc. My excuse was a
> mistaken assumption that you were seeking a solution, had possibly
> overlooked the obvious basics of purchasing technical literature. Some
> times people are distracted by shiney things or colourful cover art.
>
> I see now your intent was mostly to complain, possibly provoke like
> minded individuals to rally to your "cause"?
> Since there is room for all, I'll just call it a day and let you go
> on your merry way. Have fun with it.
>
> 12+ years experience is a long time. I would suggest it seemed even
> longer to those around you.
>
> Please offer my apologies to your co-workers, especially to any
> subordinates.
>


Nice!

--
Catwalker
aka Pu$$y Feet
BS, MCP, MCSA
MCNGP #43
www.mcngp.com
faq.mcngp.com
"If man could be crossed with the cat, it would improve man, but it would
deteriorate the cat." Mark Twain

Re: Yet another contradiction by Grant

Grant
Sat Apr 16 08:36:21 CDT 2005

In article <1113588744.811128.276930@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
blastingfonda@gmail.com says...
> It does raise a few interesting questions. When you install Windows
> Service Pack 2, does it install all .dll files and other system files,
> even those used for services that you have yet to install? Or does it
> selectively only install the updates and fixes for the services you
> currently have installed?

In my recent studies I was left with the impression that the new Windows
Installer recognizes when a new service is being installed and then
updates that service from the Service Pack install files stored on the
HDD. While these files ARE stored on your HDD they aren't 'installed' (as
in copied to System32, registered, or listed in the registry) until the
new service is installed triggering the installation of the updates. This
is similar to hardware driver files sitting in the i386/drivers.cab file
until they are needed.

I may not have gotten it all correct, considering the poor quality of the
book I was studying from, but I think this is the gist of it.

Re: Yet another contradiction by Grant

Grant
Sat Apr 16 09:26:02 CDT 2005

In article <aOQ7e.2640$t85.1896@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>,
Zenner@pacbell.net says...
> Seeing your point for what it is, I guess there is no hope for a solution
> that will satisfy your problem.

I really think that is sad. There are tens of thousands of people out
there trying to study for these exams. To just accept that there is no
good study material should be an embarrassment to everyone involved.

However, now that I know the material and have passed the test I feel I
can make a good recommendation for the Microsoft Self-Paced Training Kit.
I had gotten so frustrated with my ExamCram2 book that I went to Borders
to have a look at the MS book. It is incredibly thorough, covers each and
every objective completely, and doesn't have redundant sections with
contradictory information. My only complaint about this book is that it
goes a couple of levels deeper than is necessary for the test. However,
if you learn everything in that book you will certainly pass the test
with flying colors AND really know your stuff too. There are even
sidebars that explain the difference between what Microsoft wants you to
know for the test and how things work in the real world. I was really
surprised considering how MS often has a total pie in the sky attitude
about it's products.

Studying this book will definitely take longer than some of the other
books but it will be worth it. You will not get nearly as frustrated as I
got with the ExamCram2 book. You will be much more confident going into
the test. And you will then really, really, know your stuff. Even though
I passed the test yesterday, I am thinking about buying this book anyway
just to make sure I really learn what I feel I need to know.

> We all know there are no in-house manuals provided with Ms products any
> more...although I do have copies from win95 and early versions of NT...I
> will accept they were not in general circulation.

I remember those. I would only consider them partial manuals. But
admittedly better than what you get these days.

> There is some additional
> effort involved in finding them, but as you complained, that too is
> Microsofts fault.

I think it would benefit Microsoft if they were to start riding herd on
what is published out there. Not censoring info that makes them look bad,
but making sure things are at least accurate. These days, there are far
too many books out there that are closer to randomly typed 'content' than
actual information. I hate to say it but I will probably just limit
myself to only buying books published by Microsoft in the future.


> I see now your intent was mostly to complain, possibly provoke like minded
> individuals to rally to your "cause"?
> Since there is room for all, I'll just call it a day and let you go on your
> merry way. Have fun with it.

You are correct. I was just so frustrated I felt I had to warn others so
they could avoid the problems I had experienced. And what's so wrong with
trying to get others to rally around the cause of demanding better, more
accurate study material?


> 12+ years experience is a long time. I would suggest it seemed even longer
> to those around you.

Here we go again. Every time I don't think everything is perfect in the
Microsoft world I get personal attacks. Did I insult you? Have I made any
negative comment about you in any way? I just asked you not to insult me
and you start making general assumptions about my character and workplace
habits.

> Please offer my apologies to your co-workers, especially to any
> subordinates.

And please offer your own apologies to those you have to live with on a
day to day basis. It must be very difficult for them to live with all the
veiled insults and passive aggressive behavior you dish out any time they
don't agree with you.

Now I know why there are very few people besides newbies and MVP's in
these newsgroups. Whether consciously or unconsciously, you drive all the
normal people out. There are far too many people like you in these
newsgroups that go on the attack as soon as someone doesn't agree with
you. You can't just say, "I disagree." You have to throw in some kind if
veiled insult to boot. And when someone asks you to please stop insulting
them you go on even more of an attack.

You people think you are doing a service to Microsoft by running down
anyone who doesn't think MS is God's gift to software but you are not. By
stifling any real discourse here you are driving most people away to the
anti-Microsoft forums where all that gets accomplished is ranting and
conspiracy theories.

Claiming that I must be a terrible person to get along with does not make
you more right. It just shows that you can't accept anyone disagreeing
with you.

Re: Yet another contradiction by catwalker63

catwalker63
Sat Apr 16 12:02:45 CDT 2005

I prefer the MS press training kits as well. However, if you are looking
for reference material and a real-world approach to MS products, try the
mastering books by Mark Minasi (publisher Sybex). They read like novels
and they don't glorify Microsoft. And there are tons of articles and
resources on the MS website for the intrepid student. If you haven't
already, learn to use the knowledge base and technet.

As for MS riding herd on writers and publishers, they don't have that
kind of power and no one really wants them to. Books have errors just
like code has errors. Do the best you can, check more than one source
and try things out in a test environment.

--
Catwalker
aka Pu$$y Feet
BS, MCP, MCSA
MCNGP #43
www.mcngp.com
faq.mcngp.com
"If man could be crossed with the cat, it would improve man, but it would
deteriorate the cat." Mark Twain

Re: Yet another contradiction by Grant

Grant
Sat Apr 16 19:59:30 CDT 2005

In article <Xns963A6631340BBcatwalker63athotmail@216.196.97.136>,
_catwalker63_@hotmamamail.com says...
> try the mastering books by Mark Minasi (publisher Sybex). They read like novels
> and they don't glorify Microsoft.

He has been suggested before. I think I am definitely going to have to
check him out.


> If you haven't already, learn to use the knowledge base and technet.

Oh, I know! I used to complain about the dearth of information available
on the MS web site but no more. You could really spend years just sitting
and reading the stuff in the on-line technet and resource kits. It is
well written and thorough. I am really impressed. When I that darn
ExamCram2 book was unclear (usually) it was the TechNet site that cleared
things up for me.

Oh, oh, you know what would be great? If Microsoft provided links to the
TechNet and Resource Kit web pages for each of the objectives of each of
the exams. Then it would be easy to make sure we had read all of the
pertinent information. It wouldn't do away with study guides but it would
certainly make researching in TechNet easier.


> As for MS riding herd on writers and publishers, they don't have that
> kind of power and no one really wants them to. Books have errors just
> like code has errors. Do the best you can, check more than one source
> and try things out in a test environment.

I guess I really don't want them to have true censorship power. But some
kind of certification system that we could really trust would be nice.
Just have an independent MCT read it through for accuracy. Maybe a group
of MCT's could get together and start their won accuracy certification
system. I would certainly be more inclined to buy a book that was
certified accurate. That is why I am probably going to stick with only MS
Press books as much as possible from now on. (except for that Mark guy) I
have gotten tired of all the books out there that are not much more than
repeats of the help file. I am now finding the MS Press books to be the
most thorough and accurate ones available. I actually enjoy reading them.
Who would have thought that I of all people would ever say that?

Re: Yet another contradiction by catwalker63

catwalker63
Sat Apr 16 23:17:22 CDT 2005

Grant Robertson <BOGUS@BOGUS.com> prattled ceaslessly in
news:e4VGziuQFHA.2132@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl:

> <snip>
> Oh, oh, you know what would be great? If Microsoft provided links to
> the TechNet and Resource Kit web pages for each of the objectives of
> each of the exams.
> <snip>
> That is why I am probably going to stick with only MS Press books as
> much as possible from now on. (except for that Mark guy) I have gotten
> tired of all the books out there that are not much more than repeats
> of the help file. I am now finding the MS Press books to be the most
> thorough and accurate ones available. I actually enjoy reading them.
> Who would have thought that I of all people would ever say that?
>

I suppose an index of that sort would be be helpful, but I don't think
it's practical. Most of the books I've used in this process have
refered to articles and included links, many of which are out of date by
the time I get to reading the book. The KB and Technet have pretty good
search engines that are more practical indexes than the one you mention
and it's good practice since that's what you'll have when you have
problems "in real life".

I caution you to consider each book you buy on its own merits rather
than making a sweeping decision to only trust MS Press books. Not all
MS Press books are created equal. There are also many excellent books
from other publishers.

Examples: For Active Directory, I recommend O'Reilly Active Directory,
2nd Edition, by Allen and Lowe-Norris. For security, in addition to the
MS Press Windows Security Resource Kit, I recommend looking into books
written by Roberta Bragg (she has more than one publisher). For Group
Policy, Sybex Group Policy, Profiles, and IntelliMirror by Moskowitz is
excellent.

Read the reviews at Amazon etc. If authors are listed, check out their
reputation and see what other books they have written. Definately get
more than one book for exams that have areas you are unfamiliar with.
And always, practice, practice, practice.

--
Catwalker
aka Pu$$y Feet
BS, MCP, MCSA
MCNGP #43
www.mcngp.com
faq.mcngp.com
"If man could be crossed with the cat, it would improve man, but it
would deteriorate the cat." Mark Twain

Re: Yet another contradiction by zenner

zenner
Sun Apr 17 10:33:29 CDT 2005

My feelings, as reference material, for the ExamCram series, especially the
revived "ExamCram2" series is pretty low. For an IT professional, I
characterize that series as fit, only, for dilettantes and managers ;( ? The
level of knowledge in them is mainly cursory...fit only to impress friends
at cocktail parties, the local watering hole or possibly, enough to get you
through an initial job interview.

To get any depth on the subject...you need to read the MSpress offerings.
Mark M. signature series does offer a good fairly detailed line of manuals
and I have nothing but praise for the O'Reilly line of books...even though
they usually are better for quick reference...after you already know the
subject...rather than covering the subject enough to use as a reference
before taking an exam.

TechNet has grown into an essential tool for any IT professional and
obviously, time spent learn how and when to use Knowledge base is always
well spent. Studying to pass the test shouldn't be your primary goal...you
should study to learn the subject to a depth that you can feel comfortable
explaining, extemporaneously, to another professional...that would be a good
test of your knowledge. Passing the exam is just gravy on the meat.
"zenner" <Zenner@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:aOQ7e.2640$t85.1896@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
> Seeing your point for what it is, I guess there is no hope for a solution
> that will satisfy your problem.
>
> We all know there are no in-house manuals provided with Ms products any
> more...although I do have copies from win95 and early versions of NT...I
> will accept they were not in general circulation.
>
> The vacuum of MS provide hard copy manuals, as I mentioned, was filled by
> third-parties and Online help manuals and/or Readme files, hotfixes,
> etc...included on the disc and later on CD/DVD. There is some additional
> effort involved in finding them, but as you complained, that too is
> Microsofts fault.
>
> I was wrong to offer a solution; such as checking the published and/or
> revised date of 3rd-party manuals, study guides, etc. My excuse was a
> mistaken assumption that you were seeking a solution, had possibly
> overlooked the obvious basics of purchasing technical literature. Some
> times people are distracted by shiney things or colourful cover art.
>
> I see now your intent was mostly to complain, possibly provoke like minded
> individuals to rally to your "cause"?
> Since there is room for all, I'll just call it a day and let you go on
> your merry way. Have fun with it.
>
> 12+ years experience is a long time. I would suggest it seemed even longer
> to those around you.
>
> Please offer my apologies to your co-workers, especially to any
> subordinates.
>
> "Grant Robertson" <BOGUS@BOGUS.com> wrote in message
> news:u8zqzqXQFHA.1172@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>> In article <ttx7e.3399$dT4.2991@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com>,
>> Zenner@pacbell.net says...
>>> Check the publish date of the manual then compare the last revised date
>>> of
>>> the Guide.Take the explanation of the newer release.
>>
>> I don't know which 'manual' you are talking about. If you haven't
>> noticed, Windows hasn't come with even a halfway comprehensive manual
>> since 3.11. Besides, the question isn't about what is the latest actual
>> information. It is about what is the latest fantasy MS wants me to
>> memorize for the test. When I can't even get the same version of the
>> fantasy from one chapter to another in a study guide or between the guide
>> and the practice test bound into that same volume, then I'd say the guide
>> is just about worthless.
>>
>>> As a long time professional, you probably forgot that books, manuals,
>>> guides...etc.., are only valid as long as technology is static. The rate
>>> of
>>> change has risen to the point that much documentation is obsolete, soon
>>> after publication, sometimes...even before. Thus the reliance on "Help"
>>> files, "Readme"...or the necessity to visit various vendor web sites
>>> when,
>>> if you want the latest information.
>>
>> As a long time professional I have forgotten nothing of the kind. It's
>> not as if I am still working on the same old DOS machines I started on. I
>> have to keep up with the technology just like anyone else. But when I pay
>> $30 for a book to help me cram for a test I expect it to be accurate to
>> the test it is supposedly helping me cram for.
>>
>>
>>> This brings up one of my pet peeves. Most certification exams fail to
>>> advise
>>> the candidate of which level of the software the test is based. Not a
>>> problem in general, but when asking specific questions, as which screen
>>> or
>>> command line strings are used ...it can make a lot of difference. I have
>>> noted this kind of discrepancy on several occasions. Best bet is go with
>>> the
>>> "general" release level....
>>
>> Now you are getting it.
>>
>>
>>> If you are expecting to achieve a "perfect score" on an exam. you are
>>> putting a lot of unnecessary pressure on yourself.
>>
>> I am not expecting to pass with a perfect score. However, I don't want to
>> fail because it was impossible to get accurate information to study.
>> Besides, with the vast number of entry level MCP's out there it would be
>> a nice addition to my resume to be able to brag about my score.
>>
>>
>>> In my general experience,
>>> a few flaws keeps you honest. Don't want to get too invested in being
>>> "right" at the expense of getting the job "done". It's possible to be
>>> "dead
>>> right"! Kind'a like arguing with the CEO. you may prove your point, but
>>> they
>>> might not care to hear about your 100% record at the new job you are
>>> applying for!
>>
>> Yeah, I don't really need workplace advice. And I don't appreciate my
>> expectation of the availability of accurate information for an exam that
>> costs $125 to take and can make or break a career being compared to the
>> idiocy of getting fired for arguing with a CEO. It is insulting.
>
>



Re: Yet another contradiction by Grant

Grant
Sun Apr 17 10:32:38 CDT 2005

In article <Xns963AD89169605catwalker63athotmail@216.196.97.136>,
_catwalker63_@hotmamamail.com says...
> I suppose an index of that sort would be be helpful, but I don't think
> it's practical. Most of the books I've used in this process have
> refered to articles and included links, many of which are out of date by
> the time I get to reading the book. The KB and Technet have pretty good
> search engines that are more practical indexes than the one you mention
> and it's good practice since that's what you'll have when you have
> problems "in real life".

I live in real life now and use these resources often in my work. I just
thought it would be nice if MS maintained an index on their site.
HOpefully, it wouldn't get out of date like something in a book or on a
CD.


> I caution you to consider each book you buy on its own merits rather
> than making a sweeping decision to only trust MS Press books. Not all
> MS Press books are created equal. There are also many excellent books
> from other publishers.

Good point. I have just been so disappointed lately with what is out
there. But I have always been impressed with the MS Press books. I had
just resisted buying them because I didn't want to give even more money
to the richest man in the world. But now it is a matter of my career and
how much time I have to spend dinking around (not much). So I just want a
simple basic strategy to avoid some stress.


> Examples: For Active Directory, I recommend O'Reilly Active Directory,
> 2nd Edition, by Allen and Lowe-Norris. For security, in addition to the
> MS Press Windows Security Resource Kit, I recommend looking into books
> written by Roberta Bragg (she has more than one publisher). For Group
> Policy, Sybex Group Policy, Profiles, and IntelliMirror by Moskowitz is
> excellent.

Thanks, I have added them to my list of possibilities in the future.


> Read the reviews at Amazon etc. If authors are listed, check out their
> reputation and see what other books they have written.

Unfortunately, this is how I ended up with the ExamCram2 book. I now have
no faith in on-line reviews where just anyone can post. I suspect that a
lot of ballot box stuffing goes on.

> Definately get
> more than one book for exams that have areas you are unfamiliar with.

That sounds like a good strategy. Perhaps I will go with the MS Press
books to start and follow them up with one more from the recommendations
I get here.


> And always, practice, practice, practice.

I thought I had. As a former network manager and now an independent
consultant I have set up hundreds of PC's. But there were situations
covered by the test that just simply weren't mentioned or barely glossed
over in that ExamCram2 book.

Well, thanks for all your advice. I have my certification and now must
turn to the truly stressful task of getting a regular job in this tough
market. Wish me luck.