Thinking about the MCSE accreditation after 11 years in IT

All,

I am thinking about doing the MCSE exams and the route I am going to take is
to buy some books and start from there. I was thinking about the MCSE
Windows 2003 Core requirements ISBN 0735619530 as a good starting point but I
notice that three out of the four books within the set are not availible for
sale seperatly any more. Does any one know why this is? Are Microsoft about
to publish revised versions?

The reason for asking is I do not wish to go out and spend £100 on the books
to find out that they are not worth it.

Does anyone have any views on these books or are there better ones out there
for the MCSE Cert?

Thanks in advance.

Ogre
Fri Sep 09 07:46:57 CDT 2005

ADAdmin wrote:
> Does anyone have any views on these books or are there better ones out there
> for the MCSE Cert?

How much of your experience is in NT, 2000 or 2003? If you say a good
bit, I would get the skills being measured for the exam I was going to
take, buy the 2003 Resource Kit and Transenders or Self-Test exams.
Take one of the tests, see where your weaknesses were and let that be
the start of where to study.

The only thing I really like about the MS Press books are the labs and
exercises, I find that they collect dust after I finish with the exams;
where as I have referred many times to the Res Kit.

Just my 2 cents

Jalexander01
Fri Sep 09 08:28:02 CDT 2005

Congrats on your goal to get an MCSE. The cert itself doesn't give you any
skill, but it certainly will look very nice on a resume coupled with that 11
years of IT experience you've got.

The Transcender practice exams have gotten me thru 11 tests so far. Not
only do they get you prepared for the tricky questions of the exam, but they
do an excellent job of explaining the answers and referencing books if you
want to dig into an answer further.

I personally don't like book study for the exams because there's far too
much filler info that I have to skim thru. I just want the details, the
rules, the methods, etc...

"ADAdmin" wrote:

> All,
>
> I am thinking about doing the MCSE exams and the route I am going to take is
> to buy some books and start from there. I was thinking about the MCSE
> Windows 2003 Core requirements ISBN 0735619530 as a good starting point but I
> notice that three out of the four books within the set are not availible for
> sale seperatly any more. Does any one know why this is? Are Microsoft about
> to publish revised versions?
>
> The reason for asking is I do not wish to go out and spend £100 on the books
> to find out that they are not worth it.
>
> Does anyone have any views on these books or are there better ones out there
> for the MCSE Cert?
>
> Thanks in advance.

Neil
Fri Sep 09 08:51:53 CDT 2005

did you hear =?Utf-8?B?SmFsZXhhbmRlcjAx?=
<Jalexander01@discussions.microsoft.com> say in
news:D58F7F7E-B2B1-4D0B-806A-A300224488EF@microsoft.com:

> they
> do an excellent job of explaining the answers and referencing books if
> you want to dig into an answer further.
>

I like them for just this reason. And they are not dumps. Stay away from
dumps. TestKing is a dump, Transcenders are a test prep.

(baiting chalk for yet another round of arguing <g>)

--
Neil MCNGP#30

- A good hot dog feeds the hand that bites it.

Neil
Fri Sep 09 10:24:21 CDT 2005

did you hear =?Utf-8?B?SmFsZXhhbmRlcjAx?= <Jalexander01
@discussions.microsoft.com> say in news:D58F7F7E-B2B1-4D0B-806A-
A300224488EF@microsoft.com:

> I personally don't like book study for the exams because there's far
too
> much filler info that I have to skim thru. I just want the details,
the
> rules, the methods, etc...

I will disagree here. Cram the brain with books, CD info, Videos,
websites, TechNet, MSDN, KB articles, books online, every thing. The best
will be actually using the product and trying things out. Create a
network (consider using Virtual Machines - either VPC or VMWare) and
build and break till you really understand it.

--
Neil MCNGP#30

- If at first you don't succeed, change the rules.

Kline
Fri Sep 09 11:07:41 CDT 2005

>Transcenders are a test prep.
>
>(baiting chalk for yet another round of arguing <g>)

that's right Neil they're test preps. As the format of the real exams
bare's no resemblance to the real world, why should these types of
'test preps' be any different :-)

Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3

Kline
Fri Sep 09 11:08:43 CDT 2005

>Cram the brain with books, CD info, Videos,
>websites, TechNet, MSDN, KB articles, books online, every thing. The best
>will be actually using the product and trying things out. Create a
>network (consider using Virtual Machines - either VPC or VMWare) and
>build and break till you really understand it.

absolutely.

Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3

Kline
Fri Sep 09 11:15:26 CDT 2005

>The Transcender practice exams have gotten me thru 11 tests so far. Not
>only do they get you prepared for the tricky questions of the exam,

lol!

> but they
>do an excellent job of explaining the answers and referencing books if you
>want to dig into an answer further.

wow, they point you to the msdn/exam coarse notes.

This would be fine I've they never gave you the answer's, thus
requiring people to actual go off and so the research. As it is,
people simply 'memorize the answers' to questions which the taker
hopes will be similar (or the same) as those in the real exam. This
hardly proves an understanding of the subject matter.

Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3

Kline
Fri Sep 09 11:16:57 CDT 2005

>The only thing I really like about the MS Press books are the labs and
>exercises, I find that they collect dust after I finish with the exams;

Ebay is your friend :-)

>where as I have referred many times to the Res Kit.

Yup.

Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3

JaR
Fri Sep 09 11:15:06 CDT 2005

In microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, Kline Sphere spewed across the ether:

> As the format of the real exams
> bare's no resemblance to the real world,

They do so! Ben said so.

And it's "bears"

--
JaR
Thug 10110
MCNGP.com/spelling/politzei

Neil
Fri Sep 09 11:26:04 CDT 2005

did you hear Kline Sphere <.@> say in
news:mmc3i1dhcckovahrpnk08ivl89chakm82n@4ax.com:

> that's right Neil they're test preps. As the format of the real exams
> bare's no resemblance to the real world, why should these types of
> 'test preps' be any different :-)

depends on teh colour of the sky in your world. There are a ton of places
that use multiple domains, My office has one that supports 2500 users.
There are little shops that will merrily use RRAS, where as I would
rather pull off my own head. There are places that wouldn't be caught
dead using Windows DNS even if thye do have to have an AD Domain. I think
that it's ok. The exams cover a pretty broad spectrum and the real world
just might have some of those things.

As for the word "prep", are you suggesting that preparing for a test is
bad? is Learning something a bad thing? Should I blindly go into an exam
without reviewing material? I have plenty of experience, even though I
have mentioned I wouldn't be cuaght dead using RRAS; I'm sure that wont
be on the 70-216 exam. Sure I see it listed on www.microsoft.com/learning
as an area covered, but this is the real world right. oh sorry, reading
that was preparing wasn't it. DAGNUBIT! I must have been cheating when I
read that without knowing it...

--
Neil MCNGP#30

- Sex is not the answer. Sex is the question. "Yes" is the answer.

Neil
Fri Sep 09 11:27:05 CDT 2005

did you hear Kline Sphere <.@> say in
news:3rc3i19dd5e5k1dd88a9cd6tj1ihipgtb6@4ax.com:

>>Cram the brain with books, CD info, Videos,
>>websites, TechNet, MSDN, KB articles, books online, every thing. The
>>best will be actually using the product and trying things out. Create
>>a network (consider using Virtual Machines - either VPC or VMWare) and
>>build and break till you really understand it.
>
> absolutely.
>
> Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
>

and then fill in the gaps with the Transcenders...

*poke, poke*

--
Neil MCNGP#30

- Dachshund: Half a dog high by a dog and a half long.

Neil
Fri Sep 09 11:28:24 CDT 2005

did you hear Kline Sphere <.@> say in
news:ftc3i19l4kbvtrluem2cf43vt3t058bq8m@4ax.com:

> wow, they point you to the msdn/exam coarse notes.

no they point to the exam fine notes...

(the Mrs is the Gammar police, I'm the Gramper police)

--
Neil MCNGP#30

- You're schizophrenic? Gee, that makes four of us!

Jalexander01
Fri Sep 09 13:01:02 CDT 2005



"Kline Sphere" wrote:

> wow, they point you to the msdn/exam coarse notes.
>
> This would be fine I've they never gave you the answer's, thus
> requiring people to actual go off and so the research. As it is,
> people simply 'memorize the answers' to questions which the taker
> hopes will be similar (or the same) as those in the real exam. This
> hardly proves an understanding of the subject matter.
>
> Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
>

I have to disagree with that. Everyone I've ever spoken with who has used
Transcender test preps has said that they're able to learn a significant
amount from the explanations. No memorization of the answers is required if
the test prep clearly explains why an answer is correct and another is not,
which Transcender does quite nicely. Memorization of the rules & reasons IE:
"GPOs can only be tied to Domains, OUs, & Sites" can actually give one an
excellent understanding of the subject matter.

I'm sure there have got to be some people in the world foolish enough to go
thru a Transcender test prep and attempt to memorize the answers, but I
hardly think that the majority of Transcender customers do so.

catwalker63
Fri Sep 09 13:20:30 CDT 2005

JaR <jrderby@lakabux.com> prattled ceaslessly in
news:Xns96CC5E1CFDEFCMisanthrope@207.46.248.16:

> In microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, Kline Sphere spewed across the
> ether:
>
>> As the format of the real exams
>> bare's no resemblance to the real world,
>
> And it's "bears"
>

Lions and Tigers and Bares, Oh My! <eg>

--
Catwalker
aka Pu$$y Feet
BS, MCP, MCSA, MCSE
MCNGP #43
www.mcngp.com
faq.mcngp.com
"Definitely not wearing any underwear."

Ogre
Fri Sep 09 13:25:01 CDT 2005

Kline Sphere wrote:
>
> Ebay is your friend :-)

I thought Google was my friend.

Kline
Fri Sep 09 14:00:42 CDT 2005

>There are a ton of places
>that use multiple domains, My office has one that supports 2500 users.
>There are little shops that will merrily use RRAS, where as I would
>rather pull off my own head. There are places that wouldn't be caught
>dead using Windows DNS even if thye do have to have an AD Domain. I think
>that it's ok. The exams cover a pretty broad spectrum and the real world
>just might have some of those things.

That's right Neil, real world decisions are always based on 'choosing
the best answer from the list above'. Your example above, shows just
why such exam questions are pointless, i.e why would a company use
(or would not use) 'Windows DNS'......, the only correct answer here
(given the lack of information) is 'who knows?'.

The exam topics do indeed cover a 'broad spectrum' of real world
problems (as defined in the prep guids), but they do not prove by
answering the question correctly, either in the real exams or
transcenders (and like of), that the person actual understands said
question. When someone can explain and describe why there choose the
answer, then the truly understand the question.

>As for the word "prep", are you suggesting that preparing for a test is
>bad? is Learning something a bad thing?

'prep' in the context of transcender and the like of, yes I sure am. I
don't blame the company, it's format that's crap; but soon........

>Should I blindly go into an exam
>without reviewing material?

only if you can 'read' in braille.

Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3

Kline
Fri Sep 09 14:04:20 CDT 2005

>and then fill in the gaps with the Transcenders...
>
>*poke, poke*

you know exactly what I mean, but incase you've forgotten :-

Being able to answer a question by memorizing the answer to a
predicted question does not constitute an understanding of the
question, and indeed, the answer.

Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3

Frisbee®
Fri Sep 09 13:59:56 CDT 2005

"Jalexander01" <Jalexander01@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:F187E4CC-5D5F-4A71-81CC-7DBE9773A9AD@microsoft.com...
>
>
> "Kline Sphere" wrote:
>
>> wow, they point you to the msdn/exam coarse notes.
>>
>> This would be fine I've they never gave you the answer's, thus
>> requiring people to actual go off and so the research. As it is,
>> people simply 'memorize the answers' to questions which the taker
>> hopes will be similar (or the same) as those in the real exam. This
>> hardly proves an understanding of the subject matter.
>>
>> Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
>>
>
> I have to disagree with that. Everyone I've ever spoken with who has used
> Transcender test preps has said that they're able to learn a significant
> amount from the explanations. No memorization of the answers is required
> if
> the test prep clearly explains why an answer is correct and another is
> not,
> which Transcender does quite nicely. Memorization of the rules & reasons
> IE:
> "GPOs can only be tied to Domains, OUs, & Sites" can actually give one an
> excellent understanding of the subject matter.
>
> I'm sure there have got to be some people in the world foolish enough to
> go
> thru a Transcender test prep and attempt to memorize the answers, but I
> hardly think that the majority of Transcender customers do so.

So, what have you been up to latley since Seinfeld, other than those silly
Chrystler commercials?

Kline
Fri Sep 09 14:23:28 CDT 2005

>I have to disagree with that. Everyone I've ever spoken with who has used
>Transcender test preps has said that they're able to learn a significant
>amount from the explanations.

I'm sure people do. However, there are also people that use such
products simply because the questions and answers are so close to the
real thing; given the format it's hard for the answers not to be.

> No memorization of the answers is required if
>the test prep clearly explains why an answer is correct and another is not,
>which Transcender does quite nicely. Memorization of the rules & reasons IE:
>"GPOs can only be tied to Domains, OUs, & Sites" can actually give one an
>excellent understanding of the subject matter.

The question should not be about reciting a simple rule as in your
example given above. Being able the describe and explain why a GPO
would be more appropriate being 'tied' (as you put it) to an ou rather
than a domain for a given situation, without having to choose from a
list, would prove such understanding.

>I'm sure there have got to be some people in the world foolish enough to go
>thru a Transcender test prep and attempt to memorize the answers, but I
>hardly think that the majority of Transcender customers do so.

I truly have no idea. What I do know, is there are plenty of so called
'microsoft certified professionals' out there who know nothing about
what they are supposed to be 'certified' in. How do they do this?
Simple, they memorize the answers to the questions obtained from dumps
and/or from 'practice tests'.

Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3

Neil
Fri Sep 09 14:23:34 CDT 2005

did you hear Kline Sphere <.@> say in
news:mll3i1dao9i501qnoggu01l08aic11h51p@4ax.com:

> it's format that's crap; but soon........
>

agreed, and agreed

(OMG!?!?!111!!!1!one!!!)

--
Neil MCNGP#30

- If you only have a nail every tool looks like a hammer.

Neil
Fri Sep 09 14:24:30 CDT 2005

did you hear Kline Sphere <.@> say in
news:mll3i1dao9i501qnoggu01l08aic11h51p@4ax.com:

> That's right Neil, real world decisions are always based on 'choosing
> the best answer from the list above'.

happens every day at fast food restaraunts...conicidence?

--
Neil MCNGP#30

- Only a few fries short of a Happy Meal...

JaR
Fri Sep 09 14:25:22 CDT 2005

In microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, Ogre spewed across the ether:

>> Ebay is your friend :-)
>
> I thought Google was my friend.

Well, now you have two friends.

--
JaR
Thug 10110
MCNGP.com

Neil
Fri Sep 09 14:30:08 CDT 2005

did you hear Kline Sphere <.@> say in
news:dvm3i15as9g2urrq4mgdcvcf4b1h37b5lp@4ax.com:

> Being able to answer a question by memorizing the answer to a
> predicted question does not constitute an understanding of the
> question, and indeed, the answer.

yet happens every day. My kids learned multiplation by route first and
then slowly as they began to comprehend, the light goes on and they can
then get past 12 times 12.

Occasionally comprehension is derived from route. I will agree that it is
better to have the comprehension first. Learning however is unique to
each individual. Some people actauly learn from lecture. some from
reading, some from labs, some from watchnig videos....

--
Neil MCNGP#30

- Who is General Failure and why is he reading my drive?

Neil
Fri Sep 09 14:45:01 CDT 2005

did you hear Kline Sphere <.@> say in
news:o6n3i15tnhb5bk424uo4ejde8kq69v2uc9@4ax.com:

> Simple, they memorize the answers to the questions obtained from dumps
> and/or from 'practice tests'.

I will agree with the "dumps"portion of that, but not the practice tests.

--
Neil MCNGP#30

- Life is sexually transmitted, and terminal...

Jalexander01
Fri Sep 09 15:40:02 CDT 2005

"Kline Sphere" wrote:

>I'm sure people do. However, there are also people that use such
>products simply because the questions and answers are so close to the
>real thing; given the format it's hard for the answers not to be.
>
>The question should not be about reciting a simple rule as in your
>example given above. Being able the describe and explain why a GPO
>would be more appropriate being 'tied' (as you put it) to an ou rather
>than a domain for a given situation, without having to choose from a
>list, would prove such understanding.
>
>I truly have no idea. What I do know, is there are plenty of so called
>'microsoft certified professionals' out there who know nothing about
>what they are supposed to be 'certified' in. How do they do this?
>Simple, they memorize the answers to the questions obtained from dumps
>and/or from 'practice tests'.
>
>Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3



I don't disagree that there are plenty of people out there who are certified
yet not competent. I like to refer to this as "Big hat, no cattle".

Your issue seems to be more with the fact that the tests don't truly prove
an understanding of the material, and I agree with that. However, your
implication that a pratice test is no better a learning tool than a dump is
simply unfounded. Memorizing answers from a dump in no way compares to the
knowledge that can be gleaned from a well developed pratice exam. Niether
can compare to real world experience, but one is without a doubt a better
learning tool than the other.

Kline
Fri Sep 09 16:22:51 CDT 2005

>> Being able to answer a question by memorizing the answer to a
>> predicted question does not constitute an understanding of the
>> question, and indeed, the answer.
>
>yet happens every day. My kids learned multiplation by route first and
>then slowly as they began to comprehend, the light goes on and they can
>then get past 12 times 12.

Up to a certain point, or rather grade, this is how we learn..... a
certain point that is.

Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3