OT: Paisleyskye

Paisleyskye,



First of all I am not here to enter into the "Flame War, I am a simple
systems analyst contractor that finds all this rather amusing.



Paisleyskye, I think you need to, as the Americans say, "Chill Out". The
messages posted here which seem to be causing you so much concern are no
more than background noise, the content of which you will find within the
average office environment even in the [overly] "politically correct" UK.



While I do not care to participate to such message posting, I do however
read the harmless chitchat amongst the members of this group, much of which
makes me laugh. Granted much of which is off topic, but those people are not
criminals.



In many of your messages I have read today, you mention how people are
"TORTURED", well I see little in this group to backup such remarks. The only
"people" who are "TORTURED" are the spammers, trolls and brain dump pioneers
which together only serve to undermine the status of an MCSE. I personally
do not indulge in "TORTURING" those type worthless people, however the
people who do so have my full backing, it's a shame Microsoft does not do
more to stop the troll's, spammer's etc, etc from ruining the certification
experience for the rest of us. I took the trouble to have a look at the
article posted on the ICertify.net site, I remember many of the messages you
mention, all of which are of a humorous nature. As such, anyone who sees
those posts as anything more than people laughing and joking around should
seek help before they top themselves, they certainly would not last five
minutes in some of the offices/departments I've worked in. The only post I
saw which could be deemed as offensive was the one which questioned your
sexuality; rather uncalled for, but I understand the message poster has
apologised to you, which to me, shows a level of maturity you will not find
within a spammer, troll or brain dump pioneer. I also notice that several of
the MCNGP "members" have posted replies on at least one of the forums
maintained by you. Half expecting this "Flame War" to decent in to your own
area, I was pleasantly surprised by the constructiveness and good nature of
the replies posted by those "thugs" as you would have them known as.



One final point I will bring to your attention; you make reference to
"newbies" who are also abused. Well as far as I am aware the mcse
certification is not targeted at "newbies". There are already too many paper
mcse's in existence who achieve the title without out having any worthwhile
"real world" experience. In any case I don't see "newbies" getting abused in
the newsgroup, I do however see many idiotic messages many of which are
repeated over and over again, by people who clearly do not have the ability
and experience to legitimately become an mcse. Again this is a problem
Microsoft has not addressed, so the problem continues despite companies
saying "Please, no more paper MCSE's". In one of you messages you mention
that people have to start somewhere, well I completely agree, however the
MCSE certification is not the starting point. An MCSE needs to have more
than the ability to simply download and memorise answers to the multitude of
"practice tests" out there, the practice of which only helps to undermine
the value of the MCSE title.



Name and email withheld because I don't want to be flamed by you or anyone
else; as I'm not a "member" of the MCNGP I guess the Flaming could come from
both directions.

The
Sun Jan 04 07:01:44 CST 2004

Exactly.

On Sun, 4 Jan 2004 12:13:00 -0000, "Lighten Up!" <nospam@imbritsh.com>
wrote:

>Paisleyskye,
>
>
>
>First of all I am not here to enter into the "Flame War, I am a simple
>systems analyst contractor that finds all this rather amusing.
>
>
>
>Paisleyskye, I think you need to, as the Americans say, "Chill Out". The
>messages posted here which seem to be causing you so much concern are no
>more than background noise, the content of which you will find within the
>average office environment even in the [overly] "politically correct" UK.
>
>
>
>While I do not care to participate to such message posting, I do however
>read the harmless chitchat amongst the members of this group, much of which
>makes me laugh. Granted much of which is off topic, but those people are not
>criminals.
>
>
>
>In many of your messages I have read today, you mention how people are
>"TORTURED", well I see little in this group to backup such remarks. The only
>"people" who are "TORTURED" are the spammers, trolls and brain dump pioneers
>which together only serve to undermine the status of an MCSE. I personally
>do not indulge in "TORTURING" those type worthless people, however the
>people who do so have my full backing, it's a shame Microsoft does not do
>more to stop the troll's, spammer's etc, etc from ruining the certification
>experience for the rest of us. I took the trouble to have a look at the
>article posted on the ICertify.net site, I remember many of the messages you
>mention, all of which are of a humorous nature. As such, anyone who sees
>those posts as anything more than people laughing and joking around should
>seek help before they top themselves, they certainly would not last five
>minutes in some of the offices/departments I've worked in. The only post I
>saw which could be deemed as offensive was the one which questioned your
>sexuality; rather uncalled for, but I understand the message poster has
>apologised to you, which to me, shows a level of maturity you will not find
>within a spammer, troll or brain dump pioneer. I also notice that several of
>the MCNGP "members" have posted replies on at least one of the forums
>maintained by you. Half expecting this "Flame War" to decent in to your own
>area, I was pleasantly surprised by the constructiveness and good nature of
>the replies posted by those "thugs" as you would have them known as.
>
>
>
>One final point I will bring to your attention; you make reference to
>"newbies" who are also abused. Well as far as I am aware the mcse
>certification is not targeted at "newbies". There are already too many paper
>mcse's in existence who achieve the title without out having any worthwhile
>"real world" experience. In any case I don't see "newbies" getting abused in
>the newsgroup, I do however see many idiotic messages many of which are
>repeated over and over again, by people who clearly do not have the ability
>and experience to legitimately become an mcse. Again this is a problem
>Microsoft has not addressed, so the problem continues despite companies
>saying "Please, no more paper MCSE's". In one of you messages you mention
>that people have to start somewhere, well I completely agree, however the
>MCSE certification is not the starting point. An MCSE needs to have more
>than the ability to simply download and memorise answers to the multitude of
>"practice tests" out there, the practice of which only helps to undermine
>the value of the MCSE title.
>
>
>
>Name and email withheld because I don't want to be flamed by you or anyone
>else; as I'm not a "member" of the MCNGP I guess the Flaming could come from
>both directions.
>

Techie
Sun Jan 04 12:29:42 CST 2004

Well Said

--
Techie
MCNGP #21
"Lighten Up!" <nospam@imbritsh.com> wrote in message
news:eWm$Pur0DHA.2676@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> Paisleyskye,
>
>
>
> First of all I am not here to enter into the "Flame War, I am a simple
> systems analyst contractor that finds all this rather amusing.
>
>
>
> Paisleyskye, I think you need to, as the Americans say, "Chill Out". The
> messages posted here which seem to be causing you so much concern are no
> more than background noise, the content of which you will find within the
> average office environment even in the [overly] "politically correct" UK.
>
>
>
> While I do not care to participate to such message posting, I do however
> read the harmless chitchat amongst the members of this group, much of
which
> makes me laugh. Granted much of which is off topic, but those people are
not
> criminals.
>
>
>
> In many of your messages I have read today, you mention how people are
> "TORTURED", well I see little in this group to backup such remarks. The
only
> "people" who are "TORTURED" are the spammers, trolls and brain dump
pioneers
> which together only serve to undermine the status of an MCSE. I personally
> do not indulge in "TORTURING" those type worthless people, however the
> people who do so have my full backing, it's a shame Microsoft does not do
> more to stop the troll's, spammer's etc, etc from ruining the
certification
> experience for the rest of us. I took the trouble to have a look at the
> article posted on the ICertify.net site, I remember many of the messages
you
> mention, all of which are of a humorous nature. As such, anyone who sees
> those posts as anything more than people laughing and joking around should
> seek help before they top themselves, they certainly would not last five
> minutes in some of the offices/departments I've worked in. The only post I
> saw which could be deemed as offensive was the one which questioned your
> sexuality; rather uncalled for, but I understand the message poster has
> apologised to you, which to me, shows a level of maturity you will not
find
> within a spammer, troll or brain dump pioneer. I also notice that several
of
> the MCNGP "members" have posted replies on at least one of the forums
> maintained by you. Half expecting this "Flame War" to decent in to your
own
> area, I was pleasantly surprised by the constructiveness and good nature
of
> the replies posted by those "thugs" as you would have them known as.
>
>
>
> One final point I will bring to your attention; you make reference to
> "newbies" who are also abused. Well as far as I am aware the mcse
> certification is not targeted at "newbies". There are already too many
paper
> mcse's in existence who achieve the title without out having any
worthwhile
> "real world" experience. In any case I don't see "newbies" getting abused
in
> the newsgroup, I do however see many idiotic messages many of which are
> repeated over and over again, by people who clearly do not have the
ability
> and experience to legitimately become an mcse. Again this is a problem
> Microsoft has not addressed, so the problem continues despite companies
> saying "Please, no more paper MCSE's". In one of you messages you mention
> that people have to start somewhere, well I completely agree, however the
> MCSE certification is not the starting point. An MCSE needs to have more
> than the ability to simply download and memorise answers to the multitude
of
> "practice tests" out there, the practice of which only helps to undermine
> the value of the MCSE title.
>
>
>
> Name and email withheld because I don't want to be flamed by you or anyone
> else; as I'm not a "member" of the MCNGP I guess the Flaming could come
from
> both directions.
>
>

anonymous
Mon Jan 05 07:31:14 CST 2004

I will play Devil's Advocate, hence the play on your choice of handle for your post, Mr. "Lighten Up!"

I thought your note was beautifully written. Seriously. You managed to make some valid points and you offered an alternative view on some points. All nicely done, really. And yes, I do see a lot of good, humorous offerings from the folk of MCNGP, as you stated.

But here's the rub: You said the comment on sexual orientation was offensive. But then the poster apologised. That makes it any better?

The person identifying themselves numerous times as a minor (Maggie's Son) was repeatedly verbally bashed as an adult. It seemed to me that quite a few were oblivious to the notion that a minor would or ever could inadvertantly wander into what is being claimed as a playground for adults. This is their whole defense: That it is impossible for children to stumble onto this place. Hence, the foul language, sex jibes and personal abuse can be directed at anybody, anytime.

One of the strong points I see being hammered through seemingly thick skulls is don't post anything that you even remotely - possibly - maybe - believe could result in a retraction or apology of soughts. That's all. It's very simple. It even rates in the "rules" for just about every newsgroup. So - Why is it that some people here can't realise that it may be the wrong thing to post before they post it? Why post something that *may* seem like a good idea at the time, thinking that a retraction later (if needed) will suffice if it turns out to be a bad idea? Why attack somebody on a very personal, defamatory level when you are apparently aware of all the reasons why you should never do that and highly likely aware that you will have to apologise in any case?

I have lost count of the number of times I have ignored things before coming back to them with what I believed was a carefully formulated response so as to make a point and temper my venom. I also can't believe how truly stupid some people can be (braindumpers, "newbies" asking for directions on how to buy MCSE, some of ridiculous and constant suggestions of my third-world friends, just to name a few). So I do appreciate a reply post that is at least slightly amusing and that can be fun for everyone to read. You don't have to type and send the first destructive comment that comes to your head. Some of your best material is the well thought out stuff you crafted over minutes rather than seconds.

Here's something we can all do: Go find someone whose opinion you respect. Wife. Partner. Mum. I don't care. Print out some of YOUR most offensive posts and ask them to have a read and ask if they are still just as proud of you. Hand them out to your employers and colleagues. I think if you aren't willing to share your thoughts with those close to you, then you realise your newsgroup persona is not entirely representative of you, and then consider that the Evil You may need to be toned down at times.

You don't have to write your thoughts, tainted with foulness, for no better reason other than you can. I know you all think you can get away with it here, but what if somehow those in the real world took what you have said here and used it to form opinions of you outside of newsgroups? There are more than just a few of you here that are making that type of personal contact all too easy.

oncebitten
Mon Jan 05 08:44:54 CST 2004

Darken Down! (aka Marko) wrote:
> I will play Devil's Advocate, hence the play on your choice of handle
> for your post, Mr. "Lighten Up!"
>
> I thought your note was beautifully written. Seriously. You managed
> to make some valid points and you offered an alternative view on some
> points. All nicely done, really. And yes, I do see a lot of good,
> humorous offerings from the folk of MCNGP, as you stated.

Well, that's a bit of a concession. Thanks for that much at least. At
least we're not evil 24/7 in your eyes, and perhaps not all of us, either.
At least you're not a bigot.

> But here's the rub: You said the comment on sexual orientation was
> offensive. But then the poster apologised. That makes it any
> better?

It doesn't make it worse. Should he NOT have apologized? It made it better
than it was after the comment, no?

> The person identifying themselves numerous times as a minor (Maggie's
> Son) was repeatedly verbally bashed as an adult.

The troll never identified him/herself as a minor. You are making an
assumption. I could post as "MollysSon" Would that make me a minor? Even
if the poster is NOT a troll, why are you so certain it's a minor?

> It seemed to me
> that quite a few were oblivious to the notion that a minor would or
> ever could inadvertantly wander into what is being claimed as a
> playground for adults. This is their whole defense: That it is
> impossible for children to stumble onto this place. Hence, the foul
> language, sex jibes and personal abuse can be directed at anybody,
> anytime.

Welcome to USENET, here's your accordian. Some of the worst newsgroups I've
seen are the ones with mostly minors (i.e. video game groups).

> One of the strong points I see being hammered through seemingly thick
> skulls is don't post anything that you even remotely - possibly -
> maybe - believe could result in a retraction or apology of soughts.

My suggestion is a bit simpler. Most posts are archived. Don't post
anything you would be embarrassed for your kids or grandkids to one day
read. Either that or use a handle that they'd never figure out to search
for. Didn't work for my wife. She managed to somehow find a post of mine
somewhere where I mentioned she was a ste*lth f*rter and I hear about it at
least once a week. Damn if I can't find the post, but I seem to remember
making it.

> That's all. It's very simple. It even rates in the "rules" for just
> about every newsgroup. So - Why is it that some people here can't
> realise that it may be the wrong thing to post before they post it?
> Why post something that *may* seem like a good idea at the time,
> thinking that a retraction later (if needed) will suffice if it turns
> out to be a bad idea? Why attack somebody on a very personal,
> defamatory level when you are apparently aware of all the reasons why
> you should never do that and highly likely aware that you will have
> to apologise in any case?

USENET is what it is. People in general need to develop thicker skins, and
learn to ignore that which offends them. Only you can allow yourself to be
offended.

> I have lost count of the number of times I have ignored things before
> coming back to them with what I believed was a carefully formulated
> response so as to make a point and temper my venom. I also can't
> believe how truly stupid some people can be (braindumpers, "newbies"
> asking for directions on how to buy MCSE, some of ridiculous and
> constant suggestions of my third-world friends, just to name a few).
> So I do appreciate a reply post that is at least slightly amusing and
> that can be fun for everyone to read. You don't have to type and
> send the first destructive comment that comes to your head. Some of
> your best material is the well thought out stuff you crafted over
> minutes rather than seconds.

Wise words, Marko. That kind of sums up my way of thinking on this subject.

> Here's something we can all do: Go find someone whose opinion you
> respect. Wife. Partner. Mum. I don't care. Print out some of
> YOUR most offensive posts and ask them to have a read and ask if they
> are still just as proud of you. Hand them out to your employers and
> colleagues. I think if you aren't willing to share your thoughts
> with those close to you, then you realise your newsgroup persona is
> not entirely representative of you, and then consider that the Evil
> You may need to be toned down at times.

With the exception of the ste*lth f*rting post that my wife found, I
honestly would have no problem with any friend or family member reading
anything I've ever posted. I wouldn't have thought my wife would have
gotten upset, though, so who knows. You never know how some posts will be
taken. Sarcasm and other kinds of humor often fall flat when it's written
word only.

> You don't have to write your thoughts, tainted with foulness, for no
> better reason other than you can. I know you all think you can get
> away with it here, but what if somehow those in the real world took
> what you have said here and used it to form opinions of you outside
> of newsgroups? There are more than just a few of you here that are
> making that type of personal contact all too easy.

Please don't start using "all" like Paisley. She condemns the entire MCNGP,
calling us thugs, racketeers, mafia. Not one or some, but all of us. I
don't think we "all" think we can "get away with it here." Oddly enough,
while she calls us those nasty things, she brags about causing one of our
own, Michelle, to stop posting here because she threated to sue her. That
sounds more like mafia/thug mentality to me.

--
Fris "G'day mate" bee® MCNGP #13

http://www.mcngp.tk
The MCNGP Team - We're here to help

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/certaholics
Certaholics - We're here if you're beyond help

Consultant
Mon Jan 05 09:08:23 CST 2004

i guess i'd like to see a canadian resident try to sue me, lol

> Oddly enough,
> while she calls us those nasty things, she brags about causing one of our
> own, Michelle, to stop posting here because she threated to sue her. That
> sounds more like mafia/thug mentality to me.
>
> --
> Fris "G'day mate" bee® MCNGP #13
>
> http://www.mcngp.tk
> The MCNGP Team - We're here to help
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/certaholics
> Certaholics - We're here if you're beyond help
>
>

billyw
Mon Jan 05 10:28:50 CST 2004

so we shoudn't post anything that MAY be offensive to SOMEONE sometime?
therefore should we only post overly dry tech speak with disclaimers in case
certain words in another language are offensive, after all this is a world
medium.

so now you are suggesting that no speech is better than any..

btw i find you use of the word "result" offensive. as it has a sexual
conotation where i come from... please desist with that.
also never use the word capri as in some italian slang it is used to denote
excrement.. just a little pointer..
"Darken Down! (aka Marko)" <anonymous@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in
message news:2D2897C0-3C5C-44D7-A27B-3B37C136A87D@microsoft.com...
> I will play Devil's Advocate, hence the play on your choice of handle for
your post, Mr. "Lighten Up!"
>
> I thought your note was beautifully written. Seriously. You managed to
make some valid points and you offered an alternative view on some points.
All nicely done, really. And yes, I do see a lot of good, humorous
offerings from the folk of MCNGP, as you stated.
>
> But here's the rub: You said the comment on sexual orientation was
offensive. But then the poster apologised. That makes it any better?
>
> The person identifying themselves numerous times as a minor (Maggie's Son)
was repeatedly verbally bashed as an adult. It seemed to me that quite a
few were oblivious to the notion that a minor would or ever could
inadvertantly wander into what is being claimed as a playground for adults.
This is their whole defense: That it is impossible for children to stumble
onto this place. Hence, the foul language, sex jibes and personal abuse can
be directed at anybody, anytime.
>
> One of the strong points I see being hammered through seemingly thick
skulls is don't post anything that you even remotely - possibly - maybe -
believe could result in a retraction or apology of soughts. That's all.
It's very simple. It even rates in the "rules" for just about every
newsgroup. So - Why is it that some people here can't realise that it may
be the wrong thing to post before they post it? Why post something that
*may* seem like a good idea at the time, thinking that a retraction later
(if needed) will suffice if it turns out to be a bad idea? Why attack
somebody on a very personal, defamatory level when you are apparently aware
of all the reasons why you should never do that and highly likely aware that
you will have to apologise in any case?
>
> I have lost count of the number of times I have ignored things before
coming back to them with what I believed was a carefully formulated response
so as to make a point and temper my venom. I also can't believe how truly
stupid some people can be (braindumpers, "newbies" asking for directions on
how to buy MCSE, some of ridiculous and constant suggestions of my
third-world friends, just to name a few). So I do appreciate a reply post
that is at least slightly amusing and that can be fun for everyone to read.
You don't have to type and send the first destructive comment that comes to
your head. Some of your best material is the well thought out stuff you
crafted over minutes rather than seconds.
>
> Here's something we can all do: Go find someone whose opinion you respect.
Wife. Partner. Mum. I don't care. Print out some of YOUR most offensive
posts and ask them to have a read and ask if they are still just as proud of
you. Hand them out to your employers and colleagues. I think if you aren't
willing to share your thoughts with those close to you, then you realise
your newsgroup persona is not entirely representative of you, and then
consider that the Evil You may need to be toned down at times.
>
> You don't have to write your thoughts, tainted with foulness, for no
better reason other than you can. I know you all think you can get away
with it here, but what if somehow those in the real world took what you have
said here and used it to form opinions of you outside of newsgroups? There
are more than just a few of you here that are making that type of personal
contact all too easy.
>
>

Jtyc
Mon Jan 05 11:23:04 CST 2004

> so we shoudn't post anything that MAY be offensive to SOMEONE sometime?
> therefore should we only post overly dry tech speak with disclaimers in
case
> certain words in another language are offensive, after all this is a world
> medium.
>
> so now you are suggesting that no speech is better than any..

Some people are easily offended and in today's world of "don't hurt anyones
feelings" it is best to censor the masses to protect those few.

billyw
Mon Jan 05 11:24:07 CST 2004

yes and it was YOU LOT!!! that started all that crap..
SEE, are you happy now!!!

MY GOD!!!

sorry if it hurt your or your fellow cuntry-men's feeling i just had to say
it..
i do apologise profusely...

merde to francais

"Jtyc" <jtyc_mcngp@f'nspammersdie.yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:uemf1A70DHA.404@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> > so we shoudn't post anything that MAY be offensive to SOMEONE sometime?
> > therefore should we only post overly dry tech speak with disclaimers in
> case
> > certain words in another language are offensive, after all this is a
world
> > medium.
> >
> > so now you are suggesting that no speech is better than any..
>
> Some people are easily offended and in today's world of "don't hurt
anyones
> feelings" it is best to censor the masses to protect those few.
>
>
>
>

anonymous
Mon Jan 05 18:36:18 CST 2004



----- Frisbee® MCNGP wrote: -----

Bloody good reply. I DO agree with everything you said, but I guess the degree may be a little different?

Mostly, I just don't see the point of saying some things just because I can, so I don't see why others think it is a great idea. "In the absense of reason is the absense of thought" and all that psycho babble. If it is funny, then OK: It was said as humor. And I appreciate humor. It's the malicious, offensive stuff with no humorous overtones that leaves me wondering why it was ever a thought in the mind of the writer that it would be a good thing to transcribe.

I like the funny and interesting stuff. Hell, I'm still lurking here, aren't I, so it can't be all bad? I just don't see how some of the stuff is helpful to anybody that either reads, but even more so for the person that wrote it in some cases. So I am often puzzled by some of things written here and wonder if the same people behave as monsters in real life. I mostly doubt it.

anonymous
Mon Jan 05 18:41:18 CST 2004



----- billyw wrote: ----

so we shoudn't post anything that MAY be offensive to SOMEONE sometime

I guess it comes down to how your venom is directed. Nasty, offensive, vile with no relief is probably not the balanced tone that makes for good reading. A little humor in the mix makes it better. Case in point is if we read on....

btw i find you use of the word "result" offensive. as it has a sexua
conotation where i come from... please desist with that
also never use the word capri as in some italian slang it is used to denot
excrement.. just a little pointer.

I did not know that about r****t and c***i. I'll do my best to remember that.