http://tfl09.blogspot.com/2005/06/microsoft-ditches-mcse-credentials.html

Can anyone comment on this?

Re: MCSE to be scrapped by T-Bone

T-Bone
Tue Jun 07 15:06:43 CDT 2005

"Simon Geary" <simon_geary@hotmail.com> wrote
> http://tfl09.blogspot.com/2005/06/microsoft-ditches-mcse-credentials.html
>
> Can anyone comment on this?

I believe the title "Under the stairs" says a lot about it.

Stairs/bridge/whatever.
--
T-Bone
MCNGP XL



Re: MCSE to be scrapped by Rowdy

Rowdy
Tue Jun 07 21:41:27 CDT 2005

"T-Bone" <reply2me@thenewsgroup> wrote in
news:#kNlqx5aFHA.3120@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl:

> "Simon Geary" <simon_geary@hotmail.com> wrote
>> http://tfl09.blogspot.com/2005/06/microsoft-ditches-mcse-credentials.h
>> tml
>>
>> Can anyone comment on this?
>
> I believe the title "Under the stairs" says a lot about it.
>
> Stairs/bridge/whatever.

bloody hell. we finally did it. we made Microsoft give up on the MCSE. i
knew we were gonna change the world.

--
Rowdy Yates, MCNGP Thug #39
http://www.mcngp.com/
http://profiles.yahoo.com/rowdy_yates_mcngp

Re: MCSE to be scrapped by Simon

Simon
Tue Jun 07 21:53:45 CDT 2005


"Rowdy Yates" <rowdy_yates@upyours.com> wrote in message
news:Xns966EE6D43E130rowdyyates2124@207.46.248.16...
> "T-Bone" <reply2me@thenewsgroup> wrote in
> news:#kNlqx5aFHA.3120@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl:
>
>> "Simon Geary" <simon_geary@hotmail.com> wrote
>>> http://tfl09.blogspot.com/2005/06/microsoft-ditches-mcse-credentials.h
>>> tml
>>>
>>> Can anyone comment on this?
>>
>> I believe the title "Under the stairs" says a lot about it.
>>
>> Stairs/bridge/whatever.
>
> bloody hell. we finally did it. we made Microsoft give up on the MCSE. i
> knew we were gonna change the world.
>
> --
> Rowdy Yates, MCNGP Thug #39
> http://www.mcngp.com/
> http://profiles.yahoo.com/rowdy_yates_mcngp

MCSE is dead. Long live MCNGP.

Architect program looks interesting though. I, along with most people, have
wanted Microsoft to introduce a practical element to their certification for
quite some time and I'm pleased that this is finally going to happen. There
will be no such thing as a 'paper architect' and for that I'm truly
grateful. Now what did I do with that 10 years of experience, I know I left
it round here somewhere...

http://msdn.microsoft.com/architecture/shareideas/share_certified/



Re: MCSE to be scrapped by Kline

Kline
Wed Jun 08 02:13:45 CDT 2005

>Architect program looks interesting though. I, along with most people, have
>wanted Microsoft to introduce a practical element to their certification for
>quite some time and I'm pleased that this is finally going to happen. There
>will be no such thing as a 'paper architect' and for that I'm truly
>grateful.

Let's hope the biggest company on the planet can put in to practice an
approach which many other companies/organizations have been performing
for years.

>Now what did I do with that 10 years of experience, I know I left
>it round here somewhere...

lol!

I was going to sell my experience on ebay, but only had one offer and
that was for $0.05 from T.H.E Smith.

Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3

Re: MCSE to be scrapped by Adam

Adam
Wed Jun 08 19:33:23 CDT 2005

"Simon Geary" <simon_geary@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:eIM1rY5aFHA.2128@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl:

> http://tfl09.blogspot.com/2005/06/microsoft-ditches-mcse-credential
> s.html
>
> Can anyone comment on this?

Well, page is gone so no I cannot!

Adam

Re: MCSE to be scrapped by Bob

Bob
Wed Jun 08 12:00:45 CDT 2005

Wow! They whacked that blog page pretty darned quick. I tried to go to it
today and it is gone gone.

"Simon Geary" <simon_geary@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:eIM1rY5aFHA.2128@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
> http://tfl09.blogspot.com/2005/06/microsoft-ditches-mcse-credentials.html
>
> Can anyone comment on this?
>



Re: MCSE to be scrapped by zenner

zenner
Thu Jun 09 00:13:13 CDT 2005

First, your subject title is false. Microsoft is not "scrapping" MCSE. MCSE
will remain as a Premier certification for working professionals.

What they are doing is formulating an Uber-certification...something which I
agree is needed. This new certification is meant to address Large
installations archtiture and archithects. I'm not sure if it is fully
realize yet. But at some point, I expect it will be offered by
invitation...meaning someone will need to recommend you for the
certification, there may be some mentoring and peer review involved too.

One problem, which MCSA was meant to address, is the unnecessary HR
requirement for MCSE for jobs like help desk, desk top support, system
operators. The facdt that Design and implementation certification is not
needed to maintain a system seemed to be totally lost on the HR types. Given
that many people were able to pass all the exams and courses, except the
design exams...set up a situation...that encouraged people to pass at any
cost (i.e. cheat) to meet the requirement. Somehow MCSA hasn't caught on in
the business world as a destination, most managers still see it as step
toward MCSE. So, I can see why Microsoft has decided to resolve the issue by
adding a certification above MCSE, that is specifically directed toward
system architechs. I doubt if it will become as "popular" as MCSE as it has
a limited marketablity for those looking for someone to swap backup tapes. I
expect those that acheive it will demand and justify increase recongnition
(and remunaration)
"Simon Geary" <simon_geary@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:eIM1rY5aFHA.2128@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
> http://tfl09.blogspot.com/2005/06/microsoft-ditches-mcse-credentials.html
>
> Can anyone comment on this?
>



Re: MCSE to be scrapped by Davin

Davin
Thu Jun 09 06:03:19 CDT 2005

Excellent! No braindumps can be used for the architecture exam and someone
has to recommend a person for the certification. This is great and it means
that you can't cheat because you are performing something there and creating
something. Cheating doesn't work for this cert! Also note the need of around
10 years experience in the field to be able to go for the certification and
I've only got 5 :-(. But then, 5 years experience in IT is great ;-)!

Regards,
Davin Eastley

-----------
www.davineastley.tk
Forums Home


"zenner" <zenner@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:JdQpe.1715$Z44.956@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
> First, your subject title is false. Microsoft is not "scrapping" MCSE.
> MCSE will remain as a Premier certification for working professionals.
>
> What they are doing is formulating an Uber-certification...something which
> I agree is needed. This new certification is meant to address Large
> installations archtiture and archithects. I'm not sure if it is fully
> realize yet. But at some point, I expect it will be offered by
> invitation...meaning someone will need to recommend you for the
> certification, there may be some mentoring and peer review involved too.
>
> One problem, which MCSA was meant to address, is the unnecessary HR
> requirement for MCSE for jobs like help desk, desk top support, system
> operators. The facdt that Design and implementation certification is not
> needed to maintain a system seemed to be totally lost on the HR types.
> Given that many people were able to pass all the exams and courses, except
> the design exams...set up a situation...that encouraged people to pass at
> any cost (i.e. cheat) to meet the requirement. Somehow MCSA hasn't caught
> on in the business world as a destination, most managers still see it as
> step toward MCSE. So, I can see why Microsoft has decided to resolve the
> issue by adding a certification above MCSE, that is specifically directed
> toward system architechs. I doubt if it will become as "popular" as MCSE
> as it has a limited marketablity for those looking for someone to swap
> backup tapes. I expect those that acheive it will demand and justify
> increase recongnition (and remunaration)
> "Simon Geary" <simon_geary@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:eIM1rY5aFHA.2128@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>> http://tfl09.blogspot.com/2005/06/microsoft-ditches-mcse-credentials.html
>>
>> Can anyone comment on this?
>>
>
>



Re: MCSE to be scrapped by Paul

Paul
Thu Jun 09 07:44:21 CDT 2005

"Davin Eastley" <davineastley@netspace.net.au> wrote in message
news:Ow%23Z0LObFHA.3196@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
> Excellent! No braindumps can be used for the architecture exam and someone
> has to recommend a person for the certification. This is great and it
> means that you can't cheat because you are performing something there and
> creating something. Cheating doesn't work for this cert! Also note the
> need of around 10 years experience in the field to be able to go for the
> certification and I've only got 5 :-(. But then, 5 years experience in IT
> is great ;-)!
>
> Regards,
> Davin Eastley

I wonder how this will work for IT contractors. With the best will in the
world it is difficult not to have gaps between contracts and achieving 10
years solid time contracting may require some 12 to 15 years out in the
field to accumulate solid employed time. I suspect this architect thing is
going to be self selecting for a limited number of people lucky enough to
have had permanent positions as IT managers in enterprise situations with no
gaps.

For the average MCSE contracting joe I suspect the MCSE path is going to be
it for some time.

Paul



Re: MCSE to be scrapped by JenH

JenH
Thu Jun 09 09:04:03 CDT 2005

Thomas Lee's blog is here - the entry about changes to the certs is still
there.....

http://www.developerfusion.com/blogs/detail/248



"Adam Leinss" wrote:

> "Simon Geary" <simon_geary@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:eIM1rY5aFHA.2128@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl:
>
> > http://tfl09.blogspot.com/2005/06/microsoft-ditches-mcse-credential
> > s.html
> >
> > Can anyone comment on this?
>
> Well, page is gone so no I cannot!
>
> Adam
>

Re: MCSE to be scrapped by T-Bone

T-Bone
Thu Jun 09 10:25:08 CDT 2005

"JenH" <JenH@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote
> Thomas Lee's blog is here - the entry about changes to the certs is still
> there.....
>
> http://www.developerfusion.com/blogs/detail/248

Not any more. I get page not found when I follow the link.
--
T-Bone
MCNGP XL



Re: MCSE to be scrapped by Bob

Bob
Thu Jun 09 12:02:00 CDT 2005

Maybe it will be like the GIAC certs and one would have to write an
architecture document for their certificated technologies.

Bob
"zenner" <zenner@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:JdQpe.1715$Z44.956@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
> First, your subject title is false. Microsoft is not "scrapping" MCSE.
> MCSE will remain as a Premier certification for working professionals.
>
> What they are doing is formulating an Uber-certification...something which
> I agree is needed. This new certification is meant to address Large
> installations archtiture and archithects. I'm not sure if it is fully
> realize yet. But at some point, I expect it will be offered by
> invitation...meaning someone will need to recommend you for the
> certification, there may be some mentoring and peer review involved too.
>
> One problem, which MCSA was meant to address, is the unnecessary HR
> requirement for MCSE for jobs like help desk, desk top support, system
> operators. The facdt that Design and implementation certification is not
> needed to maintain a system seemed to be totally lost on the HR types.
> Given that many people were able to pass all the exams and courses, except
> the design exams...set up a situation...that encouraged people to pass at
> any cost (i.e. cheat) to meet the requirement. Somehow MCSA hasn't caught
> on in the business world as a destination, most managers still see it as
> step toward MCSE. So, I can see why Microsoft has decided to resolve the
> issue by adding a certification above MCSE, that is specifically directed
> toward system architechs. I doubt if it will become as "popular" as MCSE
> as it has a limited marketablity for those looking for someone to swap
> backup tapes. I expect those that acheive it will demand and justify
> increase recongnition (and remunaration)
> "Simon Geary" <simon_geary@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:eIM1rY5aFHA.2128@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>> http://tfl09.blogspot.com/2005/06/microsoft-ditches-mcse-credentials.html
>>
>> Can anyone comment on this?
>>
>
>



Re: MCSE to be scrapped by zenner

zenner
Thu Jun 09 12:16:20 CDT 2005

Isn't that the point? There are very few positions that will require (in my
estimation) this level of certification. I would expect that 10 years of
experience is just about right, five a person time to develop and mature in
eh field. Further, the mentor aspect would require that you impressed
"someone" enough that they see merit in how your thought processes work.

One of the problems with current certifications is the total disregard for
accumulating the recommended time in service. It has gotten to the point
that people actually believe they "deserve" MCSE or MCSA as an entitlement
instead of as a reward for earning it.

I still wonder just how effective some of these child prodigies, who pass
the exams at 12, 13 or younger. Same as youngsters graduating from college
at an early age, is that really the point...just to pass an exam?

I'm holding out for the need to not only know how its done...but to have
done it, lived it and breathed it for a while. You need to know not only
"How" to do something, you also need to know "When" it's appropriate and why
it's appropriate. I have managed many people that are "smarter" than I,
faster coders...but they needed someone to identify the problem...they
didn't have clue of how to separate the wheat from the chaff. After a few
years of seasoning, they became very, very good. There is something to
recommend reflection and evaluation ... before acting.

So, it takes 10 years, if you are in the business for the long haul, that's
not such a bad thing.
"Paul" <pbird@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:FQWpe.14181$%21.13619@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
> "Davin Eastley" <davineastley@netspace.net.au> wrote in message
> news:Ow%23Z0LObFHA.3196@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>> Excellent! No braindumps can be used for the architecture exam and
>> someone has to recommend a person for the certification. This is great
>> and it means that you can't cheat because you are performing something
>> there and creating something. Cheating doesn't work for this cert! Also
>> note the need of around 10 years experience in the field to be able to go
>> for the certification and I've only got 5 :-(. But then, 5 years
>> experience in IT is great ;-)!
>>
>> Regards,
>> Davin Eastley
>
> I wonder how this will work for IT contractors. With the best will in the
> world it is difficult not to have gaps between contracts and achieving 10
> years solid time contracting may require some 12 to 15 years out in the
> field to accumulate solid employed time. I suspect this architect thing
> is going to be self selecting for a limited number of people lucky enough
> to have had permanent positions as IT managers in enterprise situations
> with no gaps.
>
> For the average MCSE contracting joe I suspect the MCSE path is going to
> be it for some time.
>
> Paul
>



Re: MCSE to be scrapped by Simon

Simon
Thu Jun 09 15:58:56 CDT 2005


"zenner" <zenner@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:JdQpe.1715$Z44.956@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
> First, your subject title is false. Microsoft is not "scrapping" MCSE.
> MCSE will remain as a Premier certification for working professionals.
>

Well the title of the original (now mysteriously missing) blog post was
"Microsoft ditches MCSE credentials" and the opening line was "Microsoft has
decided to drop the all the current Microsoft Certified credentials,
including MCSE, MCSA, MCDBA" so if the post is true then I don't see how my
subject is false. I never gave any opinions in my post, all I did was ask
others to comment on what someone else said.

I don't know if you managed to read the original blog post before it was
yanked but Thomas talked about two other new (as yet unannounced)
certifications as well as the architect program which from my reading looked
like they were intended to replace MCSA\MCSE.



Re: MCSE to be scrapped by JaR

JaR
Thu Jun 09 16:13:24 CDT 2005

In microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, Simon Geary spewed across the ether:

> I don't know if you managed to read the original blog post before it
> was yanked but Thomas talked about two other new (as yet unannounced)
> certifications as well as the architect program which from my reading
> looked like they were intended to replace MCSA\MCSE.

Yeah, well, I did read the blog. I noted the lack of any sort of a source
for Thomas' claims.

One wonders if he is passing on rumor? Or did he obtain his information by
rectal excavation.

--
JaR
Thug 10110
MCNGP.com dept of cynicsm

Re: MCSE to be scrapped by zenner

zenner
Thu Jun 09 16:58:39 CDT 2005

It's unfortunate that erroneous information was titled and passed on, under
your name....don't you hate when that happens? Generally when something
so...fantastic or controversial is posted, I make it a point to research it
before re-posting...but that's probably just me. The more salacious a rumor,
the more likely that despite there being a possible seed of truth, added by
a lot fertilizer to help it grow, I would seriously doubt it with out
checking the MS site and a few third party sources...just for S & G's.

It's a good thing for all involved that I specifically said the "Title" was
false instead of saying something I could not defend. Good way to avoid
flame wars.

Actually, the gist of the announcement was previously revealed, reported,
several weeks, months ago in a number of trade publications. I think it was
even a topic of an extended thread in this (Microsoft.public.cert.
exam.mcse) NG.

anyway, the facts are out, to replace the rumor, that's the important
thing..
"Simon Geary" <simon_geary@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:%23dbPNYTbFHA.2664@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
>
> "zenner" <zenner@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:JdQpe.1715$Z44.956@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
>> First, your subject title is false. Microsoft is not "scrapping" MCSE.
>> MCSE will remain as a Premier certification for working professionals.
>>
>
> Well the title of the original (now mysteriously missing) blog post was
> "Microsoft ditches MCSE credentials" and the opening line was "Microsoft
> has decided to drop the all the current Microsoft Certified credentials,
> including MCSE, MCSA, MCDBA" so if the post is true then I don't see how
> my subject is false. I never gave any opinions in my post, all I did was
> ask others to comment on what someone else said.
>
> I don't know if you managed to read the original blog post before it was
> yanked but Thomas talked about two other new (as yet unannounced)
> certifications as well as the architect program which from my reading
> looked like they were intended to replace MCSA\MCSE.
>



Re: MCSE to be scrapped by Davin

Davin
Thu Jun 09 19:38:10 CDT 2005

Zenner,

I am 13 years old myself and training for the MCAD Certification. In my
case, I'm no child prodigy. I'm teaching myself this stuff. I later want to
be in a high-level IT position and in a business doing some Software
Development. Training for the exams isn't just about passing. It's
understanding the materials and using your knowledge in the real world in
your area of specialization. If you can pass the exam, that's a bonus and if
you understand the material very well, passing is the easy bit!

Regards,
Davin Eastley

-----------
www.davineastley.tk
Forums Home


"zenner" <zenner@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:EP_pe.1859$Z44.1480@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
> Isn't that the point? There are very few positions that will require (in
> my estimation) this level of certification. I would expect that 10 years
> of experience is just about right, five a person time to develop and
> mature in eh field. Further, the mentor aspect would require that you
> impressed "someone" enough that they see merit in how your thought
> processes work.
>
> One of the problems with current certifications is the total disregard for
> accumulating the recommended time in service. It has gotten to the point
> that people actually believe they "deserve" MCSE or MCSA as an entitlement
> instead of as a reward for earning it.
>
> I still wonder just how effective some of these child prodigies, who pass
> the exams at 12, 13 or younger. Same as youngsters graduating from college
> at an early age, is that really the point...just to pass an exam?
>
> I'm holding out for the need to not only know how its done...but to have
> done it, lived it and breathed it for a while. You need to know not only
> "How" to do something, you also need to know "When" it's appropriate and
> why it's appropriate. I have managed many people that are "smarter" than
> I, faster coders...but they needed someone to identify the problem...they
> didn't have clue of how to separate the wheat from the chaff. After a few
> years of seasoning, they became very, very good. There is something to
> recommend reflection and evaluation ... before acting.
>
> So, it takes 10 years, if you are in the business for the long haul,
> that's not such a bad thing.
> "Paul" <pbird@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:FQWpe.14181$%21.13619@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
>> "Davin Eastley" <davineastley@netspace.net.au> wrote in message
>> news:Ow%23Z0LObFHA.3196@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>> Excellent! No braindumps can be used for the architecture exam and
>>> someone has to recommend a person for the certification. This is great
>>> and it means that you can't cheat because you are performing something
>>> there and creating something. Cheating doesn't work for this cert! Also
>>> note the need of around 10 years experience in the field to be able to
>>> go for the certification and I've only got 5 :-(. But then, 5 years
>>> experience in IT is great ;-)!
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Davin Eastley
>>
>> I wonder how this will work for IT contractors. With the best will in
>> the world it is difficult not to have gaps between contracts and
>> achieving 10 years solid time contracting may require some 12 to 15 years
>> out in the field to accumulate solid employed time. I suspect this
>> architect thing is going to be self selecting for a limited number of
>> people lucky enough to have had permanent positions as IT managers in
>> enterprise situations with no gaps.
>>
>> For the average MCSE contracting joe I suspect the MCSE path is going to
>> be it for some time.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>
>



Re: MCSE to be scrapped by dubya

dubya
Thu Jun 09 20:57:33 CDT 2005

the facts are, at this moment, as Simon Geary states. they have not been
officially announced.

since there's bound to be blowback, the facts may change before being
announced. the plan is not fully formulated (or has not been fully stated)
so as of now there is no path or provision for mcses or the rest of the
mcs's to retain their certs. there's bound to be something, to quiet the
bellowing of hundreds of thousands of mcses, ds dbas etc. but nobody outside
msft knows whether the path(s) being considered will be cheap and easy or
expensive and onerous. or even if possible paths to retention of these
certs are, in fact, under consideration at this point.

what i am stating has already been publicly stated and discussed. i know no
more, because i was not at the source. those who were at the source _may_
be under the restriction of some sort of tacit NDA.


"Simon Geary" <simon_geary@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:%23dbPNYTbFHA.2664@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
>
> "zenner" <zenner@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:JdQpe.1715$Z44.956@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
>> First, your subject title is false. Microsoft is not "scrapping" MCSE.
>> MCSE will remain as a Premier certification for working professionals.
>>
>
> Well the title of the original (now mysteriously missing) blog post was
> "Microsoft ditches MCSE credentials" and the opening line was "Microsoft
> has decided to drop the all the current Microsoft Certified credentials,
> including MCSE, MCSA, MCDBA" so if the post is true then I don't see how
> my subject is false. I never gave any opinions in my post, all I did was
> ask others to comment on what someone else said.
>
> I don't know if you managed to read the original blog post before it was
> yanked but Thomas talked about two other new (as yet unannounced)
> certifications as well as the architect program which from my reading
> looked like they were intended to replace MCSA\MCSE.
>



Re: MCSE to be scrapped by fygar

fygar
Fri Jun 10 07:09:53 CDT 2005

On Tue, 7 Jun 2005 20:21:54 +0100, "Simon Geary"
<simon_geary@hotmail.com> wrote:

>http://tfl09.blogspot.com/2005/06/microsoft-ditches-mcse-credentials.html
>
>Can anyone comment on this?
>

Nobody has posted the real info on the new credential yet....
http://www.microsoft.com/learning/mcp/architect/




...butch()

Re: MCSE to be scrapped by JaR

JaR
Fri Jun 10 10:12:16 CDT 2005

In microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, fygar spewed across the ether:

> On Tue, 7 Jun 2005 20:21:54 +0100, "Simon Geary"
> <simon_geary@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>http://tfl09.blogspot.com/2005/06/microsoft-ditches-mcse-credentials.html
>>
>>Can anyone comment on this?
>>
>
> Nobody has posted the real info on the new credential yet....
> http://www.microsoft.com/learning/mcp/architect/
>
>
>

Actually, yeah, it was posted quite a while ago.

--
JaR
Thug 10110
MCNGP.com Historian

Re: MCSE to be scrapped by Ben

Ben
Fri Jun 10 16:52:41 CDT 2005

In article <el0XwTRbFHA.1360@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl>,
BobChristian@removethis.gmail.com says...
> Subject: Re: MCSE to be scrapped
> From: "Bob Christian" <BobChristian@removethis.gmail.com>
> Newsgroups: microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse
>
> Maybe it will be like the GIAC certs and one would have to write an
> architecture document for their certificated technologies.
>

Actually, much, much more comprehensive than that.

Re: MCSE to be scrapped by Beoweolf

Beoweolf
Fri Jun 10 18:42:24 CDT 2005

There was some discussion on this topic back in April on another Forum.
There are a lot of helpful, good people hanging out over there. But they
definitely have attitude against Brain Dumps and dumpers and really respect
the NDA...you have been warned!

http://www.certtutor.net/Forums/messageview.cfm?catid=98&threadid=45455

"JaR" <plente@spamsuxsofthome.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9671537757863plentespamsuxsofthom@207.46.248.16...
> In microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, fygar spewed across the ether:
>
>> On Tue, 7 Jun 2005 20:21:54 +0100, "Simon Geary"
>> <simon_geary@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>http://tfl09.blogspot.com/2005/06/microsoft-ditches-mcse-credentials.html
>>>
>>>Can anyone comment on this?
>>>
>>
>> Nobody has posted the real info on the new credential yet....
>> http://www.microsoft.com/learning/mcp/architect/
>>
>>
>>
>
> Actually, yeah, it was posted quite a while ago.
>
> --
> JaR
> Thug 10110
> MCNGP.com Historian



Re: MCSE to be scrapped by The

The
Sat Jun 11 00:15:18 CDT 2005


"zenner" <zenner@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:JdQpe.1715$Z44.956@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
> First, your subject title is false. Microsoft is not "scrapping" MCSE.
> MCSE will remain as a Premier certification for working professionals.
>
> What they are doing is formulating an Uber-certification...something which
> I agree is needed. This new certification is meant to address Large
> installations archtiture and archithects. I'm not sure if it is fully
> realize yet. But at some point, I expect it will be offered by
> invitation...meaning someone will need to recommend you for the
> certification, there may be some mentoring and peer review involved too.

SLAVE++



Re: MCSE to be scrapped by The

The
Sat Jun 11 00:19:45 CDT 2005


"zenner" <zenner@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:EP_pe.1859$Z44.1480@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
> Isn't that the point? There are very few positions that will require (in
> my estimation) this level of certification. I would expect that 10 years
> of experience is just about right, five a person time to develop and
> mature in eh field. Further, the mentor aspect would require that you
> impressed "someone" enough that they see merit in how your thought
> processes work.

Translation: Start sucking up now to old people who got MCSE.

>
> One of the problems with current certifications is the total disregard for
> accumulating the recommended time in service. It has gotten to the point
> that people actually believe they "deserve" MCSE or MCSA as an entitlement
> instead of as a reward for earning it.

Translation: give them an inch, they take a mile...


>
> I still wonder just how effective some of these child prodigies, who pass
> the exams at 12, 13 or younger. Same as youngsters graduating from college
> at an early age, is that really the point...just to pass an exam?

Translation: Children grown in tubes to work as Microsoft
techno-evangelists.

> I'm holding out for the need to not only know how its done...but to have
> done it, lived it and breathed it for a while. You need to know not only
> "How" to do something, you also need to know "When" it's appropriate and
> why it's appropriate. I have managed many people that are "smarter" than
> I, faster coders...but they needed someone to identify the problem...they
> didn't have clue of how to separate the wheat from the chaff. After a few
> years of seasoning, they became very, very good. There is something to
> recommend reflection and evaluation ... before acting.

Translation: A meteor is headed for us, Mom. Let's make a bar graph.

> So, it takes 10 years, if you are in the business for the long haul,
> that's not such a bad thing.

SLAVE++

Microcephalic S. Bob



Re: MCSE to be scrapped by The

The
Sat Jun 11 00:21:39 CDT 2005

Spoken like a true 13 year old. Curb your enthusiasm, kid. Get a REAL
degree. Try college.

"Davin Eastley" <davineastley@netspace.net.au> wrote in message
news:uMnuJTVbFHA.3524@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> Zenner,
>
> I am 13 years old myself and training for the MCAD Certification. In my
> case, I'm no child prodigy. I'm teaching myself this stuff. I later want
> to be in a high-level IT position and in a business doing some Software
> Development. Training for the exams isn't just about passing. It's
> understanding the materials and using your knowledge in the real world in
> your area of specialization. If you can pass the exam, that's a bonus and
> if you understand the material very well, passing is the easy bit!
>
> Regards,
> Davin Eastley
>
> -----------
> www.davineastley.tk
> Forums Home
>
>
> "zenner" <zenner@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:EP_pe.1859$Z44.1480@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
>> Isn't that the point? There are very few positions that will require (in
>> my estimation) this level of certification. I would expect that 10 years
>> of experience is just about right, five a person time to develop and
>> mature in eh field. Further, the mentor aspect would require that you
>> impressed "someone" enough that they see merit in how your thought
>> processes work.
>>
>> One of the problems with current certifications is the total disregard
>> for accumulating the recommended time in service. It has gotten to the
>> point that people actually believe they "deserve" MCSE or MCSA as an
>> entitlement instead of as a reward for earning it.
>>
>> I still wonder just how effective some of these child prodigies, who
>> pass the exams at 12, 13 or younger. Same as youngsters graduating from
>> college at an early age, is that really the point...just to pass an exam?
>>
>> I'm holding out for the need to not only know how its done...but to have
>> done it, lived it and breathed it for a while. You need to know not only
>> "How" to do something, you also need to know "When" it's appropriate and
>> why it's appropriate. I have managed many people that are "smarter" than
>> I, faster coders...but they needed someone to identify the problem...they
>> didn't have clue of how to separate the wheat from the chaff. After a few
>> years of seasoning, they became very, very good. There is something to
>> recommend reflection and evaluation ... before acting.
>>
>> So, it takes 10 years, if you are in the business for the long haul,
>> that's not such a bad thing.
>> "Paul" <pbird@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>> news:FQWpe.14181$%21.13619@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
>>> "Davin Eastley" <davineastley@netspace.net.au> wrote in message
>>> news:Ow%23Z0LObFHA.3196@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>>> Excellent! No braindumps can be used for the architecture exam and
>>>> someone has to recommend a person for the certification. This is great
>>>> and it means that you can't cheat because you are performing something
>>>> there and creating something. Cheating doesn't work for this cert! Also
>>>> note the need of around 10 years experience in the field to be able to
>>>> go for the certification and I've only got 5 :-(. But then, 5 years
>>>> experience in IT is great ;-)!
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Davin Eastley
>>>
>>> I wonder how this will work for IT contractors. With the best will in
>>> the world it is difficult not to have gaps between contracts and
>>> achieving 10 years solid time contracting may require some 12 to 15
>>> years out in the field to accumulate solid employed time. I suspect
>>> this architect thing is going to be self selecting for a limited number
>>> of people lucky enough to have had permanent positions as IT managers in
>>> enterprise situations with no gaps.
>>>
>>> For the average MCSE contracting joe I suspect the MCSE path is going to
>>> be it for some time.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>
>>
>
>



Re: MCSE to be scrapped by Davin

Davin
Sat Jun 11 01:59:13 CDT 2005

I'm no kid. MCAD's a great cert and I will be very happy when I achieve it.

Regards,
Davin Eastley

----------
www.davineastley.tk
Forums Home


"<!-- The F-Word --> <? echo "General Microcephalic S. Bob"; ?> <!--
Antisocial Interfaces --> // 270-290-291-293-294-298-299" <{
http://www.planetoftheheads.com/ - head first into the future }> wrote in
message news:O0yfbVkbFHA.720@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
> Spoken like a true 13 year old. Curb your enthusiasm, kid. Get a REAL
> degree. Try college.
>
> "Davin Eastley" <davineastley@netspace.net.au> wrote in message
> news:uMnuJTVbFHA.3524@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
>> Zenner,
>>
>> I am 13 years old myself and training for the MCAD Certification. In my
>> case, I'm no child prodigy. I'm teaching myself this stuff. I later want
>> to be in a high-level IT position and in a business doing some Software
>> Development. Training for the exams isn't just about passing. It's
>> understanding the materials and using your knowledge in the real world in
>> your area of specialization. If you can pass the exam, that's a bonus and
>> if you understand the material very well, passing is the easy bit!
>>
>> Regards,
>> Davin Eastley
>>
>> -----------
>> www.davineastley.tk
>> Forums Home
>>
>>
>> "zenner" <zenner@pacbell.net> wrote in message
>> news:EP_pe.1859$Z44.1480@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
>>> Isn't that the point? There are very few positions that will require (in
>>> my estimation) this level of certification. I would expect that 10 years
>>> of experience is just about right, five a person time to develop and
>>> mature in eh field. Further, the mentor aspect would require that you
>>> impressed "someone" enough that they see merit in how your thought
>>> processes work.
>>>
>>> One of the problems with current certifications is the total disregard
>>> for accumulating the recommended time in service. It has gotten to the
>>> point that people actually believe they "deserve" MCSE or MCSA as an
>>> entitlement instead of as a reward for earning it.
>>>
>>> I still wonder just how effective some of these child prodigies, who
>>> pass the exams at 12, 13 or younger. Same as youngsters graduating from
>>> college at an early age, is that really the point...just to pass an
>>> exam?
>>>
>>> I'm holding out for the need to not only know how its done...but to have
>>> done it, lived it and breathed it for a while. You need to know not only
>>> "How" to do something, you also need to know "When" it's appropriate and
>>> why it's appropriate. I have managed many people that are "smarter" than
>>> I, faster coders...but they needed someone to identify the
>>> problem...they didn't have clue of how to separate the wheat from the
>>> chaff. After a few years of seasoning, they became very, very good.
>>> There is something to recommend reflection and evaluation ... before
>>> acting.
>>>
>>> So, it takes 10 years, if you are in the business for the long haul,
>>> that's not such a bad thing.
>>> "Paul" <pbird@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>>> news:FQWpe.14181$%21.13619@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
>>>> "Davin Eastley" <davineastley@netspace.net.au> wrote in message
>>>> news:Ow%23Z0LObFHA.3196@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>>>> Excellent! No braindumps can be used for the architecture exam and
>>>>> someone has to recommend a person for the certification. This is great
>>>>> and it means that you can't cheat because you are performing something
>>>>> there and creating something. Cheating doesn't work for this cert!
>>>>> Also note the need of around 10 years experience in the field to be
>>>>> able to go for the certification and I've only got 5 :-(. But then, 5
>>>>> years experience in IT is great ;-)!
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Davin Eastley
>>>>
>>>> I wonder how this will work for IT contractors. With the best will in
>>>> the world it is difficult not to have gaps between contracts and
>>>> achieving 10 years solid time contracting may require some 12 to 15
>>>> years out in the field to accumulate solid employed time. I suspect
>>>> this architect thing is going to be self selecting for a limited number
>>>> of people lucky enough to have had permanent positions as IT managers
>>>> in enterprise situations with no gaps.
>>>>
>>>> For the average MCSE contracting joe I suspect the MCSE path is going
>>>> to be it for some time.
>>>>
>>>> Paul
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>



Re: MCSE to be scrapped by The

The
Sat Jun 11 05:21:44 CDT 2005

Doogie, I'm glad you'll be happy with achieving a non-achievement. As
attractive as that may or may not be to hiring *cough* managers, I still
recommend college. Theorhetically, you'll make more money afterwards, if
money is important. You might even get to be "the boss" one day, although I
don't believe there's ever really such a thing.

Honestly, the girls at college are better, and they'll make sure you spend
every cent of whatever money you get. You'll learn more about things other
than computers, like life. And there's more of that going around than there
are computers, that's for sure.

Microcephalic S. Bob

"Davin Eastley" <davineastley@netspace.net.au> wrote in message
news:ewwvoMlbFHA.3196@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
> I'm no kid. MCAD's a great cert and I will be very happy when I achieve
> it.
>
> Regards,
> Davin Eastley
>
> ----------
> www.davineastley.tk
> Forums Home
>
>
> "<!-- The F-Word --> <? echo "General Microcephalic S. Bob"; ?> <!--
> Antisocial Interfaces --> // 270-290-291-293-294-298-299" <{
> http://www.planetoftheheads.com/ - head first into the future }> wrote in
> message news:O0yfbVkbFHA.720@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
>> Spoken like a true 13 year old. Curb your enthusiasm, kid. Get a REAL
>> degree. Try college.
>>
>> "Davin Eastley" <davineastley@netspace.net.au> wrote in message
>> news:uMnuJTVbFHA.3524@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
>>> Zenner,
>>>
>>> I am 13 years old myself and training for the MCAD Certification. In my
>>> case, I'm no child prodigy. I'm teaching myself this stuff. I later want
>>> to be in a high-level IT position and in a business doing some Software
>>> Development. Training for the exams isn't just about passing. It's
>>> understanding the materials and using your knowledge in the real world
>>> in your area of specialization. If you can pass the exam, that's a bonus
>>> and if you understand the material very well, passing is the easy bit!
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Davin Eastley
>>>
>>> -----------
>>> www.davineastley.tk
>>> Forums Home
>>>
>>>
>>> "zenner" <zenner@pacbell.net> wrote in message
>>> news:EP_pe.1859$Z44.1480@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
>>>> Isn't that the point? There are very few positions that will require
>>>> (in my estimation) this level of certification. I would expect that 10
>>>> years of experience is just about right, five a person time to develop
>>>> and mature in eh field. Further, the mentor aspect would require that
>>>> you impressed "someone" enough that they see merit in how your thought
>>>> processes work.
>>>>
>>>> One of the problems with current certifications is the total disregard
>>>> for accumulating the recommended time in service. It has gotten to the
>>>> point that people actually believe they "deserve" MCSE or MCSA as an
>>>> entitlement instead of as a reward for earning it.
>>>>
>>>> I still wonder just how effective some of these child prodigies, who
>>>> pass the exams at 12, 13 or younger. Same as youngsters graduating from
>>>> college at an early age, is that really the point...just to pass an
>>>> exam?
>>>>
>>>> I'm holding out for the need to not only know how its done...but to
>>>> have done it, lived it and breathed it for a while. You need to know
>>>> not only "How" to do something, you also need to know "When" it's
>>>> appropriate and why it's appropriate. I have managed many people that
>>>> are "smarter" than I, faster coders...but they needed someone to
>>>> identify the problem...they didn't have clue of how to separate the
>>>> wheat from the chaff. After a few years of seasoning, they became very,
>>>> very good. There is something to recommend reflection and evaluation
>>>> ... before acting.
>>>>
>>>> So, it takes 10 years, if you are in the business for the long haul,
>>>> that's not such a bad thing.
>>>> "Paul" <pbird@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:FQWpe.14181$%21.13619@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
>>>>> "Davin Eastley" <davineastley@netspace.net.au> wrote in message
>>>>> news:Ow%23Z0LObFHA.3196@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>>>>> Excellent! No braindumps can be used for the architecture exam and
>>>>>> someone has to recommend a person for the certification. This is
>>>>>> great and it means that you can't cheat because you are performing
>>>>>> something there and creating something. Cheating doesn't work for
>>>>>> this cert! Also note the need of around 10 years experience in the
>>>>>> field to be able to go for the certification and I've only got 5 :-(.
>>>>>> But then, 5 years experience in IT is great ;-)!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Davin Eastley
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder how this will work for IT contractors. With the best will in
>>>>> the world it is difficult not to have gaps between contracts and
>>>>> achieving 10 years solid time contracting may require some 12 to 15
>>>>> years out in the field to accumulate solid employed time. I suspect
>>>>> this architect thing is going to be self selecting for a limited
>>>>> number of people lucky enough to have had permanent positions as IT
>>>>> managers in enterprise situations with no gaps.
>>>>>
>>>>> For the average MCSE contracting joe I suspect the MCSE path is going
>>>>> to be it for some time.
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>



Re: MCSE to be scrapped by doctordns

doctordns
Mon Jun 13 02:15:17 CDT 2005


Simon Geary wrote:
> http://tfl09.blogspot.com/2005/06/microsoft-ditches-mcse-credentials.html
>
> Can anyone comment on this?

Yes. I was asked to pull it by Microsoft.


Re: MCSE to be scrapped by doctordns

doctordns
Mon Jun 13 02:17:45 CDT 2005

I had to pull that entry too.

My apologies.

All I can now say is to 'watch this space'. The details about the
over-arching certification, the MS Certified Architect, are now out.
Additional changes will be revealed in due course

Thomas


MCSE Worthless Test: if (MCSE.scrapped) { MCSE.value == false; } by The

The
Mon Jun 13 04:40:10 CDT 2005

> Simon Geary wrote:
>> http://tfl09.blogspot.com/2005/06/microsoft-ditches-mcse-credentials.html
>>
>> Can anyone comment on this?

> Thomas <doctordns@gmail.com> wrote in message >
> Yes. I was asked to pull it by Microsoft.
[....]
>I had to pull that entry too.
>
> My apologies.
>
> All I can now say is to 'watch this space'. The details about the
> over-arching certification, the MS Certified Architect, are now out.
> Additional changes will be revealed in due course

I'm sure you'll agree, this proposed course of action on the part of
Redmond's "finest citizens" almost conclusively answers recent questions
with regards to the perceived value of the various Microsoft certifications
and exposes the genuine null value thereof, while demonstrating the "pull
the rug out from under you" approach you can expect when dealing with our
favorite "law abiding, ethical corporation for distributing potentially
worthless paper for your I love me wall".

Consider the following possibilities, which I challenge Microsoft to
categorically deny with their upcoming "certification":

0. Before I begin: If you don't work at Microsoft, it's not your job to
dispute this, and you probably have a lot of studying to do in order to be a
paper slave, so I recommend not wasting your time. I'll abuse you to my
ultimate amusement if you disregard this and try to take the bullet. Let
Microsoft fight their own battles.

1. Any value the MCSE once may have had, it is now potentially devalued,
because a new certification is going to "raise the psychological bar" that
the imbecilic hiring managers (human mongers) will look for when structuring
their exclusion queries. If you are currently in process towards your MCSE,
the end of the arduous certification highway is now to be extended further.
If you were previously comfortable in your position as an MCSE, you now have
to scramble in order to obey and participate in Microsoft's apparent PDCC
program - aka the Perpetual Dangling Carrot Contest.

2. It's been identified that tests purely based on technical skills do not
genuinely assist companies to find employees who can solve problems that
aren't in the textbook, and if you've ever been in the IT business, you
know, all the problems aren't in the textbook. Anyone can pass a multiple
choice test because these tests are subject to the same mathematical
principals as those used in casinos, long known to statusticians,
mathematicians, and Dr. Phil, and you may be able to guess your way through
it. And of course we know that there are ways to cheat this sort of system,
with the miscellaneous "brain dumpers" and "communists" floating about
proving themselves worthy of terms we deem derogatory, which we should
probably reserve for when we reference Microsoft and our immediate families.

3. The proposed addition of a peer review is HIGHLY SUBJECTIVE and is not
cleanly meritorious, and as such will probably allow Microsoft to reject you
for nearly any reason they choose, so they can keep you locked into a system
of paying for documents that lose their value each time Microsoft constructs
another one, and maximize on the number of opportunities to make you fail at
their financial gain. This of course will suit me just fine, because I have
a service where I will fail for you AND take the blame, and as long as
Microsoft continues to perpetuate the carrot dangling, I'll always have
customers.

4. Peer reviews can represent problems, because unlike automated testing
systems, they involve human interactions and human prejudices. The
assessment of one's technical capabilities on the part of another individual
is often extremely personal and as such, destined to be wrought with peril
and suffering. Consider: "It was because I was fat and the assessor doesn't
like fat people". In general, I'm certain that you can expect that there
will be racial and sexual, age, "orientation", appearance, etc, ad
infinitum, related legal problems to contend with which may originate from
people who fail and believe the reason for this failure to be attributable
to personal feelings, expectations, perceptions, and communications
breakdowns typical when dealing with humans. This can and probably will
drive up costs associated with achieving this new certification, which you
should call the "MS - Pay For Our Lawyers In Return For A Coupon -
Sweepstakes" The assumption here of course being that Microsoft is comprised
of humans, when it could be that their employees all come from WestWorld.

5. Aware of my impending analysis, self-importance, and now as they are now
possibly desperately trying to conceal the truth of this matter, Microsoft
has apparently exercised it's "right" to control the public by "asking" for
informational references to this future "improvement" to be removed.
Obviously, Doctor DNS has learned that it is potentially a bad endeavor to
represent anything Microsoft may not want you to say, because they have
lawyers with other pieces of paper that say they can take away your paper,
and they will make you fill out forms. Way to cave in, Doctor DNS!

6. Once you complete your MCSE, and plod forward to your MSCA, the next step
will be MSCB (announced just before you complete MSCB), MSCC (designed just
before your interview so you have to keep paying Microsoft in order to get a
job), MSCDA (Deluxe Architect, which will prove once and for all that you
paid Microsoft, and come with a hat), et al, and should you commit hordes of
money and time to Microsoft you may one day achieve your MS PDCC. Or, you
can save yourself some time, and just get MS SLAVE++ tatooed anywhere it can
be scanned. Once you've done all of this, you'll gain access to the top
secret cloning and gene therapy chamber at Microsoft that turns you into one
of the Men Who Look Like Kenny Rogers. All that for only $25,000!


Microcephalic S. Bob

DISCLAIMER: the opinions expressed herein are not the actual opinions of any
individual, and should not be considered as such. Neither I, nor the other
me, claim any responsibility for the content of this message whatsoever. In
fact, we can and will blame you for it in it's entirety unless you purchase
Microcephalic S. Bob's MCSE Fail & Blame service, which entitles you to fail
and blame me for it..





Re: MCSE Worthless Test: if (MCSE.scrapped) { MCSE.value == false; } by CBIC

CBIC
Mon Jun 13 08:34:59 CDT 2005

<lots of snippage>
> Microcephalic S. Bob
>
> DISCLAIMER: the opinions expressed herein are not the actual opinions
> of any individual, and should not be considered as such. Neither I,
> nor the other me, claim any responsibility for the content of this
> message whatsoever. In fact, we can and will blame you for it in it's
> entirety unless you purchase Microcephalic S. Bob's MCSE Fail & Blame
> service, which entitles you to fail and blame me for it..

I'm sure you made some fine points in all that but there's no way I'm gonna
read all that.
--
aka
Doom MCNGP #38
www.mcngp.com knocked up your sister.
Don't forget to send spam to spam.thisbiotch@gmail.com




Re: MCSE to be scrapped by JaR

JaR
Mon Jun 13 10:35:21 CDT 2005

In microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, Beoweolf spewed across the ether:

> have attitude against Brain Dumps and dumpers and really respect
> the NDA...you have been warned!

Oooh, I'm shakin' in my sneakers.

--
JaR
Thug 10110
MCNGP.com Dept of Intimidation

Re: MCSE Worthless Test: if (MCSE.scrapped) { MCSE.value == false; } by JaR

JaR
Mon Jun 13 10:48:34 CDT 2005

In microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, CBIC spewed across the ether:

> <lots of snippage>
>> Microcephalic S. Bob
>>
>> DISCLAIMER: the opinions expressed herein are not the actual opinions
>> of any individual, and should not be considered as such. Neither I,
>> nor the other me, claim any responsibility for the content of this
>> message whatsoever. In fact, we can and will blame you for it in it's
>> entirety unless you purchase Microcephalic S. Bob's MCSE Fail & Blame
>> service, which entitles you to fail and blame me for it..
>
> I'm sure you made some fine points in all that but there's no way I'm
> gonna read all that.

No, more of the same, mostly. More amusing than informational. If you don't
read it, it doesn't matter, and I'm pretty sure ol' F-word won't care one
way or the other.

--
JaR
Thug 10110
MCNGP.com/microsoft/disgust