I have a client using Outlook on four machines wanting to
share the one mail account. This account contains
everything they've done for the last two years and used to
be a PST file on the one machine which they would all use.
In order to share this mail I suggested an IMAP solution
(MDaemon, specifically), but Outlook's behaviour doesn't
seem suited to this solution.

For instance, whenever we add a new mail folder from an
Outlook client the folder gets added on the server nice
and quickly but Outlook proceeds to download the entire
list of folders (20,000 of them) again, resulting in a
significant delay before anything can be done.

I can prevent this by flicking the "only show subscribed
folders" switch in the "IMAP Folders" settings, but then
when you add a folder you're not automatically subscribed
to it, and sooner aor later Outlook will download the
folder "hierarchy" again and the folder will disappear.
You then need to manually refresh the folder list and
subscribe to the folder.

Outlook Express, on the other hand, doesn't seem to have
these problems. When you add a folder it seems to
subscribe you to it. It doesn't seem to need to download
the entire folder list again, and even if it does it lets
you get on with your work.

The question is, is my client going to be any better off
with Exchange server? Will the public folders under
Exchange server allow better handling of these folder
lists in Outlook or will the sheer number of folders and
sub-folders just lead to the same sort of problems? I'm
not clued up on how Outlook retrieves its mail from the
Exchange server, but if it's a similar process to how it
handles IMAP then there's no point.

Thanks

cb
--

Re: Share 20,000 mail folders in one account? by Baris

Baris
Mon Oct 27 22:14:15 CST 2003

Please clarify Exchange and Outlook versions.

Baris.
===
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

"Chris Bell" <chris@blueskyhost.com> wrote in message
news:0d8801c39cef$490b9b00$a001280a@phx.gbl...
> I have a client using Outlook on four machines wanting to
> share the one mail account. This account contains
> everything they've done for the last two years and used to
> be a PST file on the one machine which they would all use.
> In order to share this mail I suggested an IMAP solution
> (MDaemon, specifically), but Outlook's behaviour doesn't
> seem suited to this solution.
>
> For instance, whenever we add a new mail folder from an
> Outlook client the folder gets added on the server nice
> and quickly but Outlook proceeds to download the entire
> list of folders (20,000 of them) again, resulting in a
> significant delay before anything can be done.
>
> I can prevent this by flicking the "only show subscribed
> folders" switch in the "IMAP Folders" settings, but then
> when you add a folder you're not automatically subscribed
> to it, and sooner aor later Outlook will download the
> folder "hierarchy" again and the folder will disappear.
> You then need to manually refresh the folder list and
> subscribe to the folder.
>
> Outlook Express, on the other hand, doesn't seem to have
> these problems. When you add a folder it seems to
> subscribe you to it. It doesn't seem to need to download
> the entire folder list again, and even if it does it lets
> you get on with your work.
>
> The question is, is my client going to be any better off
> with Exchange server? Will the public folders under
> Exchange server allow better handling of these folder
> lists in Outlook or will the sheer number of folders and
> sub-folders just lead to the same sort of problems? I'm
> not clued up on how Outlook retrieves its mail from the
> Exchange server, but if it's a similar process to how it
> handles IMAP then there's no point.
>
> Thanks
>
> cb
> --
>
>



Re: Share 20,000 mail folders in one account? by anonymous

anonymous
Tue Oct 28 07:20:08 CST 2003

>-----Original Message-----
>Please clarify Exchange and Outlook versions.
>
>Baris.

We're having the same problem with Outlook 2000 and
Outlook 2002. There doesn't seem to be any difference
between how these two handle IMAP accounts. It's not
really a "problem", it's just a behaviour we don't want
Outlook to engage in. If we only had 20 folders it would
all be fine, it's just that we have a lot more and Outlook
seems to spend most of its time trying to keep up to date
with the folder list. And there's no way of preventing it
that I know of.

Haven't tried Outlook 2003 yet but we don't have a copy
anyway, and I certainly haven't come across any lists of
new features that address any of these issues.

Outlook Express seems to be far more sensible in terms of
how it handles IMAP.

Ideally we would have an IMAP client which synchronised
folder lists level by level as we navigate through them -
i.e. every time we double-clicked into a sub-folder it
would check that it had an up-to-date list of its
subfolders. And only if we tell it to.

As for Exchange server version, well that doesn't apply
because we don't have one yet... so assume the most
recent. And we won't be getting Exchange server unless we
know it can handle the job better than MDaemon :)

What it really comes down to is whether the way that
Outlook handles Exchange accounts (and in particular
folder listings) is going to lead to the same type of
problem or get around it. Am I correct in understanding
that Outlook uses a protocol called MAPI to talk to
Exchange? Even if I read the protocol specification, I've
got no guarantee as to how Outlook will handle such a deep
folder hierarchy without trying it for myself, or getting
better advice from one of you.

Money is not an issue here, Exchange will cost six times
as much to deploy as MDaemon, but I'm not going to back it
unless I have a specific answer as to how it's going to
get around our problem with the Outlook clients.

At the moment my whole attitude is to break everything up
into multiple accounts which are under 1000 folders. That
way it would be bearable - not fast, but useable. It's the
process of having to download a list of 20,000 folders
every time we try to do something that makes it painful.
If I split everything into multiple IMAP accounts (or
perhaps even multiple Outlook accounts with different IMAP
directory roots) I can lighten the load on the client
side - Outlook will only need to retrieve a subset of the
folder listings every time I ask it to do something.

Any advice from anyone with any experience deploying
anything remotely on the scale that I'm talking about
would be vastly appreaciated.

Kudos.

P.S. I might point out that twice in the last 24 hours
Microsoft's Windows servers have failed me when I've
either made HTTP requests or tried to post to them. One of
them was even some sort of strange .NET error telling me
how to reconfigure the server to prevent the error.

cb
--



Re: Share 20,000 mail folders in one account? by Baris

Baris
Tue Oct 28 09:13:36 CST 2003

You should then definitely consider Outlook 2003 - Exchange 2003 and MAPI
protocol. This will give you the best possible experience.

You may deepen your research by finding documents about Outlook 2003
describing the improvements over previous versions. Many, many new features
exist to eliminate the bytes on the wire.

Outlook 2003 also has something called cached mode. It will transparently
switch between online/offline modes without hanging the UI or having to let
user quit from Outlook. While in cached mode, Outlook will keep a priority
list of top-user folders; then when next time it connects to server, those
top-folders will be sync'd first.

Give it a try, make sure product versions are all 2003.

Oh one last thing, if you must have Outlook connecting to Exchange over one
single port, implement RPC over HTTP feature. It requires base OS be Windows
2003 on servers, and Windows XP SP1 on the client. If you have more
questions, write back.

Baris.

--
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

<anonymous@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:0c4501c39d56$35239ae0$a401280a@phx.gbl...
> >-----Original Message-----
> >Please clarify Exchange and Outlook versions.
> >
> >Baris.
>
> We're having the same problem with Outlook 2000 and
> Outlook 2002. There doesn't seem to be any difference
> between how these two handle IMAP accounts. It's not
> really a "problem", it's just a behaviour we don't want
> Outlook to engage in. If we only had 20 folders it would
> all be fine, it's just that we have a lot more and Outlook
> seems to spend most of its time trying to keep up to date
> with the folder list. And there's no way of preventing it
> that I know of.
>
> Haven't tried Outlook 2003 yet but we don't have a copy
> anyway, and I certainly haven't come across any lists of
> new features that address any of these issues.
>
> Outlook Express seems to be far more sensible in terms of
> how it handles IMAP.
>
> Ideally we would have an IMAP client which synchronised
> folder lists level by level as we navigate through them -
> i.e. every time we double-clicked into a sub-folder it
> would check that it had an up-to-date list of its
> subfolders. And only if we tell it to.
>
> As for Exchange server version, well that doesn't apply
> because we don't have one yet... so assume the most
> recent. And we won't be getting Exchange server unless we
> know it can handle the job better than MDaemon :)
>
> What it really comes down to is whether the way that
> Outlook handles Exchange accounts (and in particular
> folder listings) is going to lead to the same type of
> problem or get around it. Am I correct in understanding
> that Outlook uses a protocol called MAPI to talk to
> Exchange? Even if I read the protocol specification, I've
> got no guarantee as to how Outlook will handle such a deep
> folder hierarchy without trying it for myself, or getting
> better advice from one of you.
>
> Money is not an issue here, Exchange will cost six times
> as much to deploy as MDaemon, but I'm not going to back it
> unless I have a specific answer as to how it's going to
> get around our problem with the Outlook clients.
>
> At the moment my whole attitude is to break everything up
> into multiple accounts which are under 1000 folders. That
> way it would be bearable - not fast, but useable. It's the
> process of having to download a list of 20,000 folders
> every time we try to do something that makes it painful.
> If I split everything into multiple IMAP accounts (or
> perhaps even multiple Outlook accounts with different IMAP
> directory roots) I can lighten the load on the client
> side - Outlook will only need to retrieve a subset of the
> folder listings every time I ask it to do something.
>
> Any advice from anyone with any experience deploying
> anything remotely on the scale that I'm talking about
> would be vastly appreaciated.
>
> Kudos.
>
> P.S. I might point out that twice in the last 24 hours
> Microsoft's Windows servers have failed me when I've
> either made HTTP requests or tried to post to them. One of
> them was even some sort of strange .NET error telling me
> how to reconfigure the server to prevent the error.
>
> cb
> --
>
>



Re: Share 20,000 mail folders in one account? by Chris

Chris
Tue Oct 28 09:53:39 CST 2003


>-----Original Message-----
>Outlook 2003 also has something called cached mode. It
will transparently
>switch between online/offline modes without hanging the
UI or having to let
>user quit from Outlook. While in cached mode, Outlook
will keep a priority
>list of top-user folders; then when next time it connects
to server, those
>top-folders will be sync'd first.
>
>Give it a try, make sure product versions are all 2003.

Thanks Baris.

I think I have a trial version of 2003 server here
somewhere, and if I'm correct there's a trial download of
Exhange Server as well that I can play with.

My client is back working off their single PST file again
for now, so I'll be deploying a mirror here to find the
best way to make it work. Once I have something working
I'll go back in and install it. I'll report back on my
results if I can.

Any other comments are appreciated, especially in relation
to the behaviour of Outlook and Exchange. From what you're
saying it sounds like Exchange/Outlook 2003 cache folder
information on a level-by-level basis rather than as an
entire list. That would certainly address the problem.

cb
--


Re: Share 20,000 mail folders in one account? by Baris

Baris
Tue Oct 28 11:30:01 CST 2003

Tremendous effort went into Outlook 2003 for optimizing the cached mode. It
works against all version of Exchange server, however specific features such
as MAPI compression and header-mode sync are only available with Exchange
2003 back-end.

As an example, if you receive a 2mb attachment and simply read it; IMAP and
older Outlook versions will sync entire 2mb attachment back to the server;
not with 2003.

Yes Exchange 2003 evaluation version is available for download at
http://www.microsoft.com/exchange

For Outlook 2003, make sure you have the RTM code. There are still some
beta2 eval/preview CDs floating around.

Let us know your experiences,

Baris.
--
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

"Chris Bell" <anonymous@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:0d5201c39d6b$a779ba60$a601280a@phx.gbl...
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >Outlook 2003 also has something called cached mode. It
> will transparently
> >switch between online/offline modes without hanging the
> UI or having to let
> >user quit from Outlook. While in cached mode, Outlook
> will keep a priority
> >list of top-user folders; then when next time it connects
> to server, those
> >top-folders will be sync'd first.
> >
> >Give it a try, make sure product versions are all 2003.
>
> Thanks Baris.
>
> I think I have a trial version of 2003 server here
> somewhere, and if I'm correct there's a trial download of
> Exhange Server as well that I can play with.
>
> My client is back working off their single PST file again
> for now, so I'll be deploying a mirror here to find the
> best way to make it work. Once I have something working
> I'll go back in and install it. I'll report back on my
> results if I can.
>
> Any other comments are appreciated, especially in relation
> to the behaviour of Outlook and Exchange. From what you're
> saying it sounds like Exchange/Outlook 2003 cache folder
> information on a level-by-level basis rather than as an
> entire list. That would certainly address the problem.
>
> cb
> --
>