Hello,

We are going to setup a new Exchange 2007 installation where
high availability is an issue. Right now we are looking at
CCR and SCC as one of the cluster models to use.

Here some input:

-1500 Users
-800 GB maildata
-HP EVA 6100 SAN with 56*300 GB discs.
-VmWare ESX 3 running on a HP Bladecenter C7000
with 5 x BL465c blades with 16 GB each.

Before we go any further we know that Exchange 2007 is NOT supported
on VmWare but we have decieded to go ahead anyway so if you leave
that issue out when you (hopefully) answer our questions.

We want to deploy the following:

- Two Clients Access servers running with NLB
- Two Hub Transport servers
- (no Edge servers as we have another solution for this role)

And then there is the Mailbox servers. We can't seem to make up our minds
about which cluster model to use CCR or SCC.
We are leaning a little towards the CCR as we here get copy of the database
if something goes wrong. You also have the possiblity to use the passive
database for backup.

Our 2 questions:

- If we want High availability and have the above equipment at our hands
what would be the best cluster model CCR or SCC ?

- We are also thinking about setting up a second data center and with that
in mind is it possible to "convert" a CCR or SCC to a SCR cluster ?


Any input will be appreciated,
Strunk

Re: Exchange 2007 - CCR or SCC cluster by Bharat

Bharat
Thu Jan 31 07:44:09 CST 2008

- SCC does not provide a copy of the Store - you can use 3rd-party solutions
to replicate the data. If you have existing investments in such solutions,
and require a cluster to scale to more than 2 nodes or create more CMSes
with lesser number of servers (e.g. 8-node cluster, 5 CMSes, 3 passive
nodes), SCC may be the way to go.
- CCR does provide you with a replica of the Store and automatic failovers.
CCR can be used in 2-node pairs, doesn't require expensive shared storage or
cluster-certified hardware. You would need to understand how replication
works (just as you would need to understand how any 3rd-party solution
works, if deployed with SCC to provide a comparable solution with data
redundancy.. ).

- SCR isn't a cluster by itself - it doesn't use MSCS (Clustering svc). It
doesn't provide automatic failovers between source and target. It is used to
replicate Storage Groups from a clustered (or non-clustered/standalone)
source server to a clustered or standalone target. If clustered, the source
can be SCC or CCR. It is designed to work across datacenters.
--
Bharat Suneja
MVP - Exchange
www.zenprise.com
NEW blog location:
exchangepedia.com/blog
----------------------------



"Strunk" <newzbin@mailme.dk> wrote in message
news:EDE80439-4E6D-4BD5-AA4C-A1489C19BEE6@microsoft.com...
> Hello,
>
> We are going to setup a new Exchange 2007 installation where
> high availability is an issue. Right now we are looking at
> CCR and SCC as one of the cluster models to use.
>
> Here some input:
>
> -1500 Users
> -800 GB maildata
> -HP EVA 6100 SAN with 56*300 GB discs.
> -VmWare ESX 3 running on a HP Bladecenter C7000
> with 5 x BL465c blades with 16 GB each.
>
> Before we go any further we know that Exchange 2007 is NOT supported
> on VmWare but we have decieded to go ahead anyway so if you leave
> that issue out when you (hopefully) answer our questions.
>
> We want to deploy the following:
>
> - Two Clients Access servers running with NLB
> - Two Hub Transport servers
> - (no Edge servers as we have another solution for this role)
>
> And then there is the Mailbox servers. We can't seem to make up our minds
> about which cluster model to use CCR or SCC.
> We are leaning a little towards the CCR as we here get copy of the
> database
> if something goes wrong. You also have the possiblity to use the passive
> database for backup.
>
> Our 2 questions:
>
> - If we want High availability and have the above equipment at our hands
> what would be the best cluster model CCR or SCC ?
>
> - We are also thinking about setting up a second data center and with that
> in mind is it possible to "convert" a CCR or SCC to a SCR cluster ?
>
>
> Any input will be appreciated,
> Strunk
>


Re: Exchange 2007 - CCR or SCC cluster by Oliver

Oliver
Thu Jan 31 11:48:15 CST 2008

I'd be interested to see how a 1500 user VM cluster runs, especially if you
don't have a 1 to 1 contention ratio (1VM:1Physical).

You should build a test lab using the production kit, and get testing. Then
get your superiors to sign off approval of a 1500 user VM SCC/CCR cluster
before sticking this straight into production. If it was me I would probably
keep the mailbox role physical, and VM the CAS and HT roles as you appear to
have more than enough blades - however thorough testing is your answer here.

Oliver



Re: Exchange 2007 - CCR or SCC cluster by Scott

Scott
Thu Jan 31 12:09:12 CST 2008

CCR is preferred over SCC for many reasons, some of which you already
pointed out:

- CCR is less expensive to deploy than SCC
- CCR protects your databases by maintaining a copy of each database on a
separate server; SCC does not provide any protection for your databases
- CCR provides service and data availability; SCC only provides service
availability
- CCR is less complicated to deploy; SCC is more complicated because it
involves shared storage and more cluster knowledge
- CCR reduces backup TCO by allowing you to offload backups from the active
node to the passive node; SCC backups are possible from the active node
only.

See http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa997928(EXCHG.80).aspx for
some more information.

As for converting; there is no conversion between CCR and SCC, as CCR and
SCC cannot exist in the same failover cluster; thus if you want to change
cluster models, you would need to build a new cluster and then migrate the
data (using Move Mailbox or database portability). If you don't have any
spare machines, and you can tolerate a brief period without redundancy, you
could take a passive node from an SCC, remove Exchange and evict it from the
cluster, and then create a new cluster with it and deploy the active CCR
role on that node. Then, migrate the data. After all of the data has been
migrated, you can decommission the old active SCC node, and re-provision it
as the passive node in your new CCR environment.

You also don't "convert" CCR or SCC to SCR, as SCR is not a clustered
solution. However, what you can do, is take your SCC or CCR environment,
upgrade it to SP1, and then extend it using SCR, which is basically enabling
one or more storage groups in the SCC or CCR environment for replication to
one or more additional target machines. See
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb676502(EXCHG.80).aspx for
details on SCR.

Hope this helps.
--
Regards,

Scott Schnoll
Microsoft Corporation
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
rights. Please do not send email directly to this alias. This alias is for
newsgroup purposes only.



"Strunk" <newzbin@mailme.dk> wrote in message
news:EDE80439-4E6D-4BD5-AA4C-A1489C19BEE6@microsoft.com...
> Hello,
>
> We are going to setup a new Exchange 2007 installation where
> high availability is an issue. Right now we are looking at
> CCR and SCC as one of the cluster models to use.
>
> Here some input:
>
> -1500 Users
> -800 GB maildata
> -HP EVA 6100 SAN with 56*300 GB discs.
> -VmWare ESX 3 running on a HP Bladecenter C7000
> with 5 x BL465c blades with 16 GB each.
>
> Before we go any further we know that Exchange 2007 is NOT supported
> on VmWare but we have decieded to go ahead anyway so if you leave
> that issue out when you (hopefully) answer our questions.
>
> We want to deploy the following:
>
> - Two Clients Access servers running with NLB
> - Two Hub Transport servers
> - (no Edge servers as we have another solution for this role)
>
> And then there is the Mailbox servers. We can't seem to make up our minds
> about which cluster model to use CCR or SCC.
> We are leaning a little towards the CCR as we here get copy of the
> database
> if something goes wrong. You also have the possiblity to use the passive
> database for backup.
>
> Our 2 questions:
>
> - If we want High availability and have the above equipment at our hands
> what would be the best cluster model CCR or SCC ?
>
> - We are also thinking about setting up a second data center and with that
> in mind is it possible to "convert" a CCR or SCC to a SCR cluster ?
>
>
> Any input will be appreciated,
> Strunk
>


Re: Exchange 2007 - CCR or SCC cluster by isobelharris

isobelharris
Sun Feb 24 00:38:54 CST 2008

On Feb 1, 5:09=A0am, "Scott Schnoll [MSFT]"
<scsch...@online.microsoft.com> wrote:
> CCR is preferred over SCC for many reasons, some of which you already
> pointed out:
>
> - CCR is less expensive to deploy than SCC
> - CCR protects your databases by maintaining a copy of each database on a
> separate server; SCC does not provide any protection for your databases
> - CCR provides service and data availability; SCC only provides service
> availability
> - CCR is less complicated to deploy; SCC is more complicated because it
> involves shared storage and more cluster knowledge
> - CCR reduces backup TCO by allowing you to offload backups from the activ=
e
> node to the passive node; SCC backups are possible from the active node
> only.
>
> Seehttp://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa997928(EXCHG.80).aspxfor
> some more information.
>
> As for converting; there is no conversion between CCR and SCC, as CCR and
> SCC cannot exist in the same failover cluster; thus if you want to change
> cluster models, you would need to build a new cluster and then migrate the=

> data (using Move Mailbox or database portability). =A0If you don't have an=
y
> spare machines, and you can tolerate a brief period without redundancy, yo=
u
> could take a passive node from an SCC, remove Exchange and evict it from t=
he
> cluster, and then create a new cluster with it and deploy the active CCR
> role on that node. =A0Then, migrate the data. =A0After all of the data has=
been
> migrated, you can decommission the old active SCC node, and re-provision i=
t
> as the passive node in your new CCR environment.
>
> You also don't "convert" CCR or SCC to SCR, as SCR is not a clustered
> solution. =A0However, what you can do, is take your SCC or CCR environment=
,
> upgrade it to SP1, and then extend it using SCR, which is basically enabli=
ng
> one or more storage groups in the SCC or CCR environment for replication t=
o
> one or more additional target machines. =A0Seehttp://technet.microsoft.com=
/en-us/library/bb676502(EXCHG.80).aspxfor
> details on SCR.
>
> Hope this helps.
> --
> Regards,
>
> Scott Schnoll
> Microsoft Corporation
> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
> rights. Please do not send email directly to this alias. This alias is for=

> newsgroup purposes only.
>
> "Strunk" <newz...@mailme.dk> wrote in message
>
> news:EDE80439-4E6D-4BD5-AA4C-A1489C19BEE6@microsoft.com...
>
>
>
> > Hello,
>
> > We are going to setup a new Exchange 2007 installation where
> > high availability is an issue. Right now we are looking at
> > CCR and SCC as one of the cluster models to use.
>
> > Here some input:
>
> > -1500 Users
> > -800 GB maildata
> > -HP EVA 6100 SAN with 56*300 GB discs.
> > -VmWare ESX 3 running on a HP Bladecenter C7000
> > with 5 x BL465c blades with 16 GB each.
>
> > Before we go any further we know that Exchange 2007 is NOT supported
> > on VmWare but we have decieded to go ahead anyway so if you leave
> > that issue out when you (hopefully) answer our questions.
>
> > We want to deploy the following:
>
> > - Two Clients Access servers running with NLB
> > - Two Hub Transport servers
> > - (no Edge servers as we have another solution for this role)
>
> > And then there is the Mailbox servers. We can't seem to make up our mind=
s
> > about which cluster model to use CCR or SCC.
> > We are leaning a little towards the CCR as we here get copy of the
> > database
> > if something goes wrong. You also have the possiblity to use the passive=

> > database for backup.
>
> > Our 2 questions:
>
> > - If we want High availability and have the above equipment at our hands=

> > =A0what would be the best cluster model CCR or SCC ?
>
> > - We are also thinking about setting up a second data center and with th=
at
> > =A0in mind is it possible to "convert" a CCR or SCC to a SCR cluster ?
>
> > Any input will be appreciated,
> > Strunk- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

CCR is less expensive to deploy than SCC? Really, idle physical
servers (passive nodes) and multiple storage per cluster, how is that
cheaper?



Re: Exchange 2007 - CCR or SCC cluster by Scott

Scott
Sun Feb 24 13:36:07 CST 2008

Response down below...

<isobelharris@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c881fb60-1c96-48c1-b9bd-484704e1b0cb@b29g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 1, 5:09 am, "Scott Schnoll [MSFT]"
<scsch...@online.microsoft.com> wrote:
> CCR is preferred over SCC for many reasons, some of which you already
> pointed out:
>
> - CCR is less expensive to deploy than SCC
> - CCR protects your databases by maintaining a copy of each database on a
> separate server; SCC does not provide any protection for your databases
> - CCR provides service and data availability; SCC only provides service
> availability
> - CCR is less complicated to deploy; SCC is more complicated because it
> involves shared storage and more cluster knowledge
> - CCR reduces backup TCO by allowing you to offload backups from the
> active
> node to the passive node; SCC backups are possible from the active node
> only.
>
> Seehttp://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa997928(EXCHG.80).aspxfor
> some more information.
>
> - Show quoted text -
>CCR is less expensive to deploy than SCC? Really, idle physical
>servers (passive nodes) and multiple storage per cluster, how is that
>cheaper?

Yes, CCR is less expensive than SCC. Here's why:

1. CCR only requires hardware on the server HCL (what we now call the
Windows Server Catalog). This is true, even for geographically-dispersed
CCR environments. You do not need to purchase specialized hardware that is
listed in either the Cluster Solutions category or the
Geographically-Dispersed Cluster Solutions category. With SCC, you do need
to buy hardware from one of these categories (depending on your
configuration) and these are typically more expensive solutions than regular
standalone servers.

2. The passive node in CCR is not idle; in fact, it is the reverse; it is
idle in SCC and used extensively in CCR. With SCC you're required to at
least one passive node in each cluster. In SCC, the passive node is an idle
node. It is not doing anything other than standing by for when you need to
do maintenance on the active node, or when there is a sufficient failure on
the active node to cause a failover. In CCR, the passive node is absolutely
not idle. It is doing work for you, and very valuable work at that. It is
maintaining a second copy of each storage group. In SCC, you only have one
copy of your data; thus, if something happens to that copy, you have a
potentially lengthy and painful recovery process that can results in a lot
of downtime for your users. In CCR, you have a second copy being maintained
online for you. In the event of failure of the active copy, you have a
passive copy you can quickly activate, resulting in very minimal downtime
for your users. Moreover, CCR enables you to offload Exchange-aware
VSS-based backups from the active node to the passive node. This provides
you with a nice reduction in backup TCO, and gives you lots of flexibility
with your backup window. In SCC, you cannot backup your data from the
passive node because there is no data on the passive node. Thus, you're
always taking backups off the active node, which can interfere with
activities such as user operations, online maintenance, and messaging
records management.

3. With a 64-bit architecture, and many many JET/ESE optimzations in both
Exchange 2007 RTM and SP1 mean a substantial reduction in disk IOPS. As a
result, you no longer need a SAN for heavyily used mailbox servers.
Instead, you can use direct attached storage, which is much cheaper than a
SAN. Yes, you will be buying twice the storage as you pointed out, but (1)
you are buying less expensive storage, and (2) you are getting tremendous
value out of this extra storage because the extra storage is used to
maintain a second copy of your data online. That second copy means much
less downtime, which saves a lot of money in lost productivity, operations
costs, etc. That by itself should be worth the price of admission. :-)

4. SCC requires shared storage; CCR does not. As a result, CCR gives you
options for less expensive storage. You don't need a SAN with CCR; DAS
works great for CCR.

That said, you really want to look at your RTO and RPO for specific failures
to find out what solution is right for you. You also need to consider other
things that drive HA, such as support for large mailboxes.

Hope this helps.
--
Regards,

Scott Schnoll
Microsoft Corporation
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
rights. Please do not send email directly to this alias. This alias is for
newsgroup purposes only.