We have been spoiled by VFP

We have been spoiled by VFP. VFP is too good to live. We have to face
reality. We have to move forward to the open source world.

Goodbye and good luck, Microsoft.

Gleason
Wed Apr 04 09:23:51 CDT 2007

On Wed, 4 Apr 2007 05:22:02 -0700, William
<William@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:

>We have been spoiled by VFP. VFP is too good to live. We have to face
>reality. We have to move forward to the open source world.
>
>Goodbye and good luck, Microsoft.

Yes we are spoiled. No, MS is not about to get dismissed.

Gleason

Claude
Wed Apr 04 09:51:32 CDT 2007

Everyone has freedom of choice. Sometimes I wonder, though, if MS develops
products first and foremost to lock developers in and maximize their market
share and only secondly to benefit developers...

"Gleason Pace" <sombrero@bluebottle.com> wrote in message
news:h6d713p0g1pdmjb2cq55sta53nh1npojr0@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 4 Apr 2007 05:22:02 -0700, William
> <William@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
>
>>We have been spoiled by VFP. VFP is too good to live. We have to face
>>reality. We have to move forward to the open source world.
>>
>>Goodbye and good luck, Microsoft.
>
> Yes we are spoiled. No, MS is not about to get dismissed.
>
> Gleason

Gleason
Wed Apr 04 11:19:28 CDT 2007

On Wed, 4 Apr 2007 10:51:32 -0400, "Claude Fox"
<claude.fox@activevfp.com> wrote:

>Everyone has freedom of choice. Sometimes I wonder, though, if MS develops
>products first and foremost to lock developers in and maximize their market
>share and only secondly to benefit developers...

Oh, yes, surely they do. Programmers write software for Windows and
not OS2 (or BEos) because everyone uses Windows. Everyone uses
Windows because programmers write software for it. People do write
software for *nix at home, at night, after working in the MS world all
day, because the MS world is where the money is. Open source is a
pretty dream, but, unless it becomes a source of money, people will be
unable to pay their mortgages working with it.

>
>"Gleason Pace" <sombrero@bluebottle.com> wrote in message
>news:h6d713p0g1pdmjb2cq55sta53nh1npojr0@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 4 Apr 2007 05:22:02 -0700, William
>> <William@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
>>
>>>We have been spoiled by VFP. VFP is too good to live. We have to face
>>>reality. We have to move forward to the open source world.
>>>
>>>Goodbye and good luck, Microsoft.
>>
>> Yes we are spoiled. No, MS is not about to get dismissed.
>>
>> Gleason
>

Gleason

Claude
Wed Apr 04 13:21:22 CDT 2007

I don't know where you get your figures from, but, the last time I checked
there's quite an industry surrounding Open Source software, consulting, etc.
and quite a few developers do very well with it...

"Gleason Pace" <sombrero@bluebottle.com> wrote in message
news:shj713ddfugrbk1qn95bj53dsk015e2f9s@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 4 Apr 2007 10:51:32 -0400, "Claude Fox"
> <claude.fox@activevfp.com> wrote:
>
>>Everyone has freedom of choice. Sometimes I wonder, though, if MS
>>develops
>>products first and foremost to lock developers in and maximize their
>>market
>>share and only secondly to benefit developers...
>
> Oh, yes, surely they do. Programmers write software for Windows and
> not OS2 (or BEos) because everyone uses Windows. Everyone uses
> Windows because programmers write software for it. People do write
> software for *nix at home, at night, after working in the MS world all
> day, because the MS world is where the money is. Open source is a
> pretty dream, but, unless it becomes a source of money, people will be
> unable to pay their mortgages working with it.
>
>>
>>"Gleason Pace" <sombrero@bluebottle.com> wrote in message
>>news:h6d713p0g1pdmjb2cq55sta53nh1npojr0@4ax.com...
>>> On Wed, 4 Apr 2007 05:22:02 -0700, William
>>> <William@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>We have been spoiled by VFP. VFP is too good to live. We have to face
>>>>reality. We have to move forward to the open source world.
>>>>
>>>>Goodbye and good luck, Microsoft.
>>>
>>> Yes we are spoiled. No, MS is not about to get dismissed.
>>>
>>> Gleason
>>
>
> Gleason

Gleason
Wed Apr 04 15:32:49 CDT 2007

On Wed, 4 Apr 2007 14:21:22 -0400, "Claude Fox"
<claude.fox@activevfp.com> wrote:

>I don't know where you get your figures from, but, the last time I checked
>there's quite an industry surrounding Open Source software, consulting, etc.
>and quite a few developers do very well with it...

Let's see, there is Codeweavers which has a commercial version of Wine
(Crossover Office). There is another outfit with a similar product.
Yes, there would be money in making it possible to run Windows
software on Linux. Also, Red Hat seems to do ok with producing an
easily installable version of Linux that makes using it reasonably
easy for the less technical types. Mandrake tried to do the same with
less success. There is only so much room for a good idea in the Linux
world, it seems. How many others?

Note that Crossover Office and Red Hat are not open source even though
Wine and perhaps Fedora are. It seems that, when it comes to the
crunch of making money, people tend to forget about the pretty dream.

Probably lots of room for consulting technical networking issues. Not
really the same thing though.

Gleason

O
Wed Apr 04 16:42:04 CDT 2007

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C77712.D9D79750
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

For the open Source in Linux,
You have Ubuntu or Slax.org

the Mandrake Entreprise does not exist any more and it was replaced with =
Mandriva.

Olivier
"Gleason Pace" <sombrero@bluebottle.com> a =E9crit dans le message de =
news: 6528131n6i2dpkgcb94rgh5uefck4kuqnb@4ax.com...
On Wed, 4 Apr 2007 14:21:22 -0400, "Claude Fox"
<claude.fox@activevfp.com> wrote:

>I don't know where you get your figures from, but, the last time I =
checked=20
>there's quite an industry surrounding Open Source software, =
consulting, etc.=20
>and quite a few developers do very well with it...

Let's see, there is Codeweavers which has a commercial version of Wine
(Crossover Office). There is another outfit with a similar product.
Yes, there would be money in making it possible to run Windows
software on Linux. Also, Red Hat seems to do ok with producing an
easily installable version of Linux that makes using it reasonably
easy for the less technical types. Mandrake tried to do the same with
less success. There is only so much room for a good idea in the Linux
world, it seems. How many others?

Note that Crossover Office and Red Hat are not open source even though
Wine and perhaps Fedora are. It seems that, when it comes to the
crunch of making money, people tend to forget about the pretty dream.

Probably lots of room for consulting technical networking issues. Not
really the same thing though.

Gleason

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C77712.D9D79750
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.3059" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#000080 size=3D2>For the open =
Source in=20
Linux,</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#000080 size=3D2>You have Ubuntu =
or=20
Slax.org</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#000080 =
size=3D2></FONT></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#000080><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>the =
Mandrake=20
Entreprise </STRONG><FONT size=3D3>does not exist any=20
more</FONT></FONT><STRONG><FONT size=3D2></FONT></STRONG> and it was =
replaced with=20
Mandriva.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#000080></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#000080><STRONG><FONT=20
size=3D2>Olivier</FONT></STRONG></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000080 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"Gleason Pace" &lt;<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:sombrero@bluebottle.com">sombrero@bluebottle.com</A>&gt; =
a =E9crit=20
dans le message de news: <A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:6528131n6i2dpkgcb94rgh5uefck4kuqnb@4ax.com">6528131n6i2dpk=
gcb94rgh5uefck4kuqnb@4ax.com</A>...</DIV>On=20
Wed, 4 Apr 2007 14:21:22 -0400, "Claude Fox"<BR>&lt;<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:claude.fox@activevfp.com">claude.fox@activevfp.com</A>&gt;=
=20
wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;I don't know where you get your figures from, but, =
the last=20
time I checked <BR>&gt;there's quite an industry surrounding Open =
Source=20
software, consulting, etc. <BR>&gt;and quite a few developers do very =
well=20
with it...<BR><BR>Let's see, there is Codeweavers which has a =
commercial=20
version of Wine<BR>(Crossover Office).&nbsp; There is another outfit =
with a=20
similar product.<BR>Yes, there would be money in making it possible to =
run=20
Windows<BR>software on Linux.&nbsp; Also, Red Hat seems to do ok with=20
producing an<BR>easily installable version of Linux that makes using =
it=20
reasonably<BR>easy for the less technical types.&nbsp; Mandrake tried =
to do=20
the same with<BR>less success.&nbsp; There is only so much room for a =
good=20
idea in the Linux<BR>world, it seems.&nbsp; How many =
others?<BR><BR>Note that=20
Crossover Office and Red Hat are not open source even though<BR>Wine =
and=20
perhaps Fedora are.&nbsp; It seems that, when it comes to =
the<BR>crunch of=20
making money, people tend to forget about the pretty =
dream.<BR><BR>Probably=20
lots of room for consulting technical networking issues.&nbsp; =
Not<BR>really=20
the same thing though.<BR><BR>Gleason<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C77712.D9D79750--

Zootal
Wed Apr 04 19:48:06 CDT 2007

There are quite a few people where I work making a living using
non-Microsoft development tools running on non-Microsoft platorms. We pay
people to run non-Microsoft mail servers on non-Microsoft OS's. I have a
computer running Windows. I have another running Linux. I have a router that
uses linux as it's OS. My cellphone is...I don't know what it its, but it
sure isn't Windows. My Tivo runs linux. I go to school and see more unix and
linux workstations then Windows workstations. We write code in java and c++,
not dot.not. We use MySql and other non-Microsoft databases to store stuff.
We server our web sites with Apache because running IIS is like putting up a
sign saying,"hack me, I'm here, hack me!".

Much to Microsoft's dismay, the world does not revolve around them, and
there are plenty of opportunities for those that don't want to walk down the
Microsoft path. And although Microsoft really hates it, there are a lot of
develoeprs using non-Microsoft tools in non-Microsoft environments. After
all these years of using VFP, it's Goodbye and Good Riddance to Microsoft
for me also. I want to use tools that are in use because developers want to
use them, not because Microsoft thinks they can make money off of them.

"Claude Fox" <claude.fox@activevfp.com> wrote in message
news:%23vGyPYudHHA.2128@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>I don't know where you get your figures from, but, the last time I checked
>there's quite an industry surrounding Open Source software, consulting,
>etc. and quite a few developers do very well with it...
>
> "Gleason Pace" <sombrero@bluebottle.com> wrote in message
> news:shj713ddfugrbk1qn95bj53dsk015e2f9s@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 4 Apr 2007 10:51:32 -0400, "Claude Fox"
>> <claude.fox@activevfp.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Everyone has freedom of choice. Sometimes I wonder, though, if MS
>>>develops
>>>products first and foremost to lock developers in and maximize their
>>>market
>>>share and only secondly to benefit developers...
>>
>> Oh, yes, surely they do. Programmers write software for Windows and
>> not OS2 (or BEos) because everyone uses Windows. Everyone uses
>> Windows because programmers write software for it. People do write
>> software for *nix at home, at night, after working in the MS world all
>> day, because the MS world is where the money is. Open source is a
>> pretty dream, but, unless it becomes a source of money, people will be
>> unable to pay their mortgages working with it.
>>
>>>
>>>"Gleason Pace" <sombrero@bluebottle.com> wrote in message
>>>news:h6d713p0g1pdmjb2cq55sta53nh1npojr0@4ax.com...
>>>> On Wed, 4 Apr 2007 05:22:02 -0700, William
>>>> <William@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>We have been spoiled by VFP. VFP is too good to live. We have to face
>>>>>reality. We have to move forward to the open source world.
>>>>>
>>>>>Goodbye and good luck, Microsoft.
>>>>
>>>> Yes we are spoiled. No, MS is not about to get dismissed.
>>>>
>>>> Gleason
>>>
>>
>> Gleason
>
>

Claude
Thu Apr 05 09:36:09 CDT 2007

Last time I checked, at least half, if not more, web apps have been
developed in PHP. Not to mention most web servers are Apache. You probably
don't have to look much farther than Google as a bellweather for the
industry, running their entire search engine architecture on a farm of Linux
servers on inexpensive PCs. Not to mention the trend of government computer
systems requiring Open Source software.
I'm from the MS camp and it applies there too. Just look at DotNetNuke. I
have seen other "for profit" software companies take DNN code, modify it,
and do extremely well :) selling a new line of products as their own...

"Gleason Pace" <sombrero@bluebottle.com> wrote in message
news:6528131n6i2dpkgcb94rgh5uefck4kuqnb@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 4 Apr 2007 14:21:22 -0400, "Claude Fox"
> <claude.fox@activevfp.com> wrote:
>
>>I don't know where you get your figures from, but, the last time I checked
>>there's quite an industry surrounding Open Source software, consulting,
>>etc.
>>and quite a few developers do very well with it...
>
> Let's see, there is Codeweavers which has a commercial version of Wine
> (Crossover Office). There is another outfit with a similar product.
> Yes, there would be money in making it possible to run Windows
> software on Linux. Also, Red Hat seems to do ok with producing an
> easily installable version of Linux that makes using it reasonably
> easy for the less technical types. Mandrake tried to do the same with
> less success. There is only so much room for a good idea in the Linux
> world, it seems. How many others?
>
> Note that Crossover Office and Red Hat are not open source even though
> Wine and perhaps Fedora are. It seems that, when it comes to the
> crunch of making money, people tend to forget about the pretty dream.
>
> Probably lots of room for consulting technical networking issues. Not
> really the same thing though.
>
> Gleason

Gleason
Thu Apr 05 11:55:27 CDT 2007

On Thu, 5 Apr 2007 10:36:09 -0400, "Claude Fox"
<claude.fox@activevfp.com> wrote:

>Last time I checked, at least half, if not more, web apps have been
>developed in PHP. Not to mention most web servers are Apache. You probably
>don't have to look much farther than Google as a bellweather for the
>industry, running their entire search engine architecture on a farm of Linux
>servers on inexpensive PCs. Not to mention the trend of government computer
>systems requiring Open Source software.
>I'm from the MS camp and it applies there too. Just look at DotNetNuke. I
>have seen other "for profit" software companies take DNN code, modify it,
>and do extremely well :) selling a new line of products as their own...

Yes, some of that. As with Codeweavers using Wine. Again, the
derivative commercial product is not open source.

You and Zootal show that open source tools are used. Not that
programmers were able to pay the rent from what they earned writing
them. Therefore, programmers who provide these tools must have some
other way of paying the rent, ie, working with closed source (probably
but not necessarily ms) tools.


Gleason

Claude
Thu Apr 05 13:24:55 CDT 2007

You're jumping to too many conclusions - many programmers make a good
living writing php web applications and, yes, I would consider them real
developers. If you're saying the original developers are not making money
then you're point is lost since these are community developed apps.
"Gleason Pace" <sombrero@bluebottle.com> wrote in message
news:r1aa131sblcvf9eqk2o5adikguqp797oj9@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 5 Apr 2007 10:36:09 -0400, "Claude Fox"
> <claude.fox@activevfp.com> wrote:
>
>>Last time I checked, at least half, if not more, web apps have been
>>developed in PHP. Not to mention most web servers are Apache. You
>>probably
>>don't have to look much farther than Google as a bellweather for the
>>industry, running their entire search engine architecture on a farm of
>>Linux
>>servers on inexpensive PCs. Not to mention the trend of government
>>computer
>>systems requiring Open Source software.
>>I'm from the MS camp and it applies there too. Just look at DotNetNuke.
>>I
>>have seen other "for profit" software companies take DNN code, modify it,
>>and do extremely well :) selling a new line of products as their own...
>
> Yes, some of that. As with Codeweavers using Wine. Again, the
> derivative commercial product is not open source.
>
> You and Zootal show that open source tools are used. Not that
> programmers were able to pay the rent from what they earned writing
> them. Therefore, programmers who provide these tools must have some
> other way of paying the rent, ie, working with closed source (probably
> but not necessarily ms) tools.
>
>
> Gleason

Gleason
Thu Apr 05 18:11:54 CDT 2007

On Thu, 5 Apr 2007 14:24:55 -0400, "Claude Fox"
<claude.fox@activevfp.com> wrote:

>You're jumping to too many conclusions - many programmers make a good
>living writing php web applications and, yes, I would consider them real
>developers. If you're saying the original developers are not making money
>then you're point is lost since these are community developed apps.

Written in their spare time by people who have other paying work.

Gleason

Claude
Fri Apr 06 07:55:26 CDT 2007

Yeah, but ending up supporting an entire Open Source software industry that
today is huge and paying alot of rents/mortgages (and making many rich!)
thru consulting, salaries, spin-off industries like publishing, and lots of
new commercial software based on the original free Open Source...

"Gleason Pace" <sombrero@bluebottle.com> wrote in message
news:pg0b13t0ertjshmedrg7v436cv7329ccml@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 5 Apr 2007 14:24:55 -0400, "Claude Fox"
> <claude.fox@activevfp.com> wrote:
>
>>You're jumping to too many conclusions - many programmers make a good
>>living writing php web applications and, yes, I would consider them real
>>developers. If you're saying the original developers are not making money
>>then you're point is lost since these are community developed apps.
>
> Written in their spare time by people who have other paying work.
>
> Gleason

RandyBosma
Fri Apr 06 14:47:22 CDT 2007

Gleason Pace wrote:
>Yes, there would be money in making it possible to run Windows
>software on Linux.

Ask Whil Hentzen about doing that......... he's got some stories to tell.

--
Message posted via http://www.dbmonster.com

Zootal
Fri Apr 06 15:46:49 CDT 2007


"RandyBosma via DBMonster.com" <u17281@uwe> wrote in message
news:704fe96bd8864@uwe...
> Gleason Pace wrote:
>>Yes, there would be money in making it possible to run Windows
>>software on Linux.
>
> Ask Whil Hentzen about doing that......... he's got some stories to tell.
>

Running Windows software on Linux isn't the problem. The problem is trying
to run Microsoft software on Linux. You do that and the Microsoft Land
Sharks will pay you a visit.

Roger
Sat Apr 07 07:43:31 CDT 2007

"Zootal" <Don't send me any freaking spam at zootal dot com remove the
don't send me any freaking spam> wrote in message
news:%23QajFzIeHHA.4596@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl
> "RandyBosma via DBMonster.com" <u17281@uwe> wrote in message
> news:704fe96bd8864@uwe...
>> Gleason Pace wrote:
>>> Yes, there would be money in making it possible to run Windows
>>> software on Linux.
>>
>> Ask Whil Hentzen about doing that......... he's got some stories to
>> tell.
>
> Running Windows software on Linux isn't the problem. The problem is
> trying to run Microsoft software on Linux. You do that and the
> Microsoft Land Sharks will pay you a visit.

That's if they find out! <g>
But even if they do, the most you're likely to get is veiled threats of
legal action. That's usually enough to spook most people (as it did
with Whil Hentzen).

IMO, the clause in VFP9's EULA (para 3c3) which says that "you may not
distribute any Distributable Code that runs on any platform other than
the
Windows platform" is anti-competitive and as such is in violation of
my country's (ie Australia's) anti-competition laws.

Remember VFP8's EULA? A complete dog's breakfast which (amongst
other things) required you to remove any earlier versions of FoxPro if
you acquired VFP8 as an upgrade. Ha! This ludicrous restriction was
removed in VFP9's EULA.

My point is that EULAs aren't law. They may contain clauses which
are unsupportable in law or which contravene statutes.

Bottom line ... if you're going to run VFP on Linux, go ahead ...
but keep quiet about it! <s>

-Roger

Gleason
Sun Apr 08 10:54:40 CDT 2007

On Fri, 6 Apr 2007 13:46:49 -0700, "Zootal" <Don't send me any
freaking spam at zootal dot com remove the don't send me any freaking
spam> wrote:

>Running Windows software on Linux isn't the problem. The problem is trying
>to run Microsoft software on Linux. You do that and the Microsoft Land
>Sharks will pay you a visit.

In the case of Crossover Office, their main focus is being able to run
MS Office. Many times this will mean that other software will run
too. But often not. For me, I can't make the switch until CO
supports MS Visual Studio. Don't need .net.



Gleason