What's about VFP and .NET

I don't know if somebody could answer me here, but I would
like to know what happen with VFP actually in the market?

I was a VFP programmer since the beginnig, but for a
couple of years, I have worked with JAVA in web
development and I didn't used VFP since about 4 years.

Why VFP is not a part of Visual Studio .NET? (Visual
Foxpro .NET for example)

Is VFP will continue to be supported by Microsoft? I saw
that VFP is now on version 8, what is the future for VFP?

Is Microsoft will integrated VFP into the Visual
Studio .NET tool in the future?

Thanks to answer me
An old VFP developer, who wants take the road again!

Serge

Cindy
Mon Nov 03 10:15:57 CST 2003

In news:0da801c3a21e$4cb4c5e0$a501280a@phx.gbl,
Serge <s.cote@cgi.com> posted:

Hi Serge,

> Why VFP is not a part of Visual Studio .NET? (Visual
> Foxpro .NET for example)

Without the VFP data engine "VFP.NET" would just be another Visual
Basic.NET. VFP was taken out of Visual Studio.NET at the request of the VFP
community. Now it has it's own ship schedule and budget.

> Is VFP will continue to be supported by Microsoft? I saw
> that VFP is now on version 8, what is the future for VFP?

From http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=fh;[ln];LifeDevToolFam,
VFP8 will be supported until 2010. VFP9 is in development and should be
supported for several years after that.

> Is Microsoft will integrated VFP into the Visual
> Studio .NET tool in the future?

There are no plans to do this.

--
Cindy Winegarden MCSD, Microsoft Visual FoxPro MVP
cindy.winegarden@mvps.org, www.cindywinegarden.com

Ook
Mon Nov 03 10:17:07 CST 2003


> Is VFP will continue to be supported by Microsoft? I saw
> that VFP is now on version 8, what is the future for VFP?

It probably doesn't have much of a future. Sooner or later Microsoft will
pull the plug on it. I would not be the least bit surprised if they stopped
development on VFP9, and I'm rather surprised this has not happened already.
I've used Fox since FoxBASE came out in the late 1980's, and I've used every
version of FoxPro and Visual FoxPro that has been released. It's the
absolute best at what it does, but Microsoft has never been willing to
aggressively market it. No marketing = reduced sales. I hate to join with
the doomer and glomers, but it's going to have it's plugged pulled, and I
believe this will happen soon.

Edhy
Mon Nov 03 10:46:46 CST 2003

Hi,

We all have been hearing the same story over and over since VFP3, and I
frankly don't understand why developers keep complaining and talking about
VFP dead!

It is here, and it will be here with VFP9 and like Cindy just mentioned:

VFP8 will be supported until 2010
Visual Basic .NET sdt 2002 will be supported until 2009
Visual Studio .NET Enterprise Developer 2003 will be supported until 2010

Based on the above expected life, I don't see how support for VFP9 is
different than the rest?
Does anybody knows the next substitute for Visual Studio .NET after 2010 to
start worrying about it now?

Again check for yourself:
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=fh;[ln];LifeDevToolFam

P.S.
Lets keep providing great solutions to our customers with whatever tools we
have available at the time. I personally will keep using VFP until I find
another product that can really retire it, for now I am just fine!

--
Edhy Rijo
Programming System Solutions www.progytech.com
Bronx NY


"Ook" <outlookexpress@nospam@embertsdotcom> wrote in message
news:#biXpXioDHA.976@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
>
> > Is VFP will continue to be supported by Microsoft? I saw
> > that VFP is now on version 8, what is the future for VFP?
>
> It probably doesn't have much of a future. Sooner or later Microsoft will
> pull the plug on it. I would not be the least bit surprised if they
stopped
> development on VFP9, and I'm rather surprised this has not happened
already.
> I've used Fox since FoxBASE came out in the late 1980's, and I've used
every
> version of FoxPro and Visual FoxPro that has been released. It's the
> absolute best at what it does, but Microsoft has never been willing to
> aggressively market it. No marketing = reduced sales. I hate to join with
> the doomer and glomers, but it's going to have it's plugged pulled, and I
> believe this will happen soon.
>
>

Brett
Mon Nov 03 15:50:57 CST 2003

"Edhy Rijo" <erijo@msn.com.NO_SPAM> wrote:

>VFP8 will be supported until 2010
>Visual Basic .NET sdt 2002 will be supported until 2009
>Visual Studio .NET Enterprise Developer 2003 will be supported until 2010

>Based on the above expected life, I don't see how support for VFP9 is
>different than the rest?

What good is "support" when you *can't* target the new Windows API?
VFP apps will look, run and behave differently than what people will
expect. Different = Bad in the market I'm afraid.

More seriously, not running as managed code may cause serious user
acceptance problems in the mid-long term. Make no mistake, Microsoft
are pushing the managed code .NET line as hard as they've ever pushed
anything. Users will expect our apps to work like all the other new
apps work. And VFP can't do it.

Edhy
Mon Nov 03 16:30:25 CST 2003

Hi Brett,

You have a point here, but it is not related to the discussion, one thing is
to request better support or compliance with the new technology and the
other is to claim that VFP is dead because is not included in .NET.

I remember at some point when using FPW2.6 I wanted to create the kind of
form you could with VB at that time, it took a while, but we have much
better tools in VFP8 and more to come in VFP9. I believe the key factor
here is that the VFP team is keeping the compatibility with the old
technology (xbase) which make the move a bit slower.

At present I have not felt the demand for .NET applications, maybe some
corporate development are working on that, but in reality $$, I can still
sell my small and big VFP applications to anybody. I just finished a one
year project that has more features than what the customer could expect from
a VFP application, the ORACLE developer and Internal Auditors of this
$$$$$$$ corporation could not believe what I have done in VFP, the project
has very rich user interface, automatic FTP transfer synchronization between
main office and 17 branches, generate and print IRS forms in .PDF format,
all kind of reports, etc. And for the transfer if require I could have use
West Wind tools to make it live.

Don't get me wrong, I am not against new technologies like .NET (remember I
came from FPD26 to VFP), it is just that I felt we are complaining too much
about how VFP compares to other languages, I think that a better approach
will be to summit enhancement request to the VFP team to get the product we
want in the future.

--
Edhy Rijo
Programming System Solutions www.progytech.com
Bronx NY


"Brett O'Callaghan" <brettocallaghan@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d3jdqvcopl67muq98g7956t6eqc0479v9c@4ax.com...
> "Edhy Rijo" <erijo@msn.com.NO_SPAM> wrote:
>
> >VFP8 will be supported until 2010
> >Visual Basic .NET sdt 2002 will be supported until 2009
> >Visual Studio .NET Enterprise Developer 2003 will be supported until 2010
>
> >Based on the above expected life, I don't see how support for VFP9 is
> >different than the rest?
>
> What good is "support" when you *can't* target the new Windows API?
> VFP apps will look, run and behave differently than what people will
> expect. Different = Bad in the market I'm afraid.
>
> More seriously, not running as managed code may cause serious user
> acceptance problems in the mid-long term. Make no mistake, Microsoft
> are pushing the managed code .NET line as hard as they've ever pushed
> anything. Users will expect our apps to work like all the other new
> apps work. And VFP can't do it.
>
>
>

Peter
Wed Nov 05 08:32:52 CST 2003

Can anyone recommend a good book about .NET and managed code? What is MS
trying to accomplish? I'd like a perspective from a non-Microsoft author.

> More seriously, not running as managed code may cause serious user
> acceptance problems in the mid-long term. Make no mistake, Microsoft
> are pushing the managed code .NET line as hard as they've ever pushed
> anything. Users will expect our apps to work like all the other new
> apps work. And VFP can't do it.

And what *can* VFP do that other systems can't? Let's make a list.

Willianto
Wed Nov 05 14:18:03 CST 2003

Hi Brett:



Why are you so upset about the fact that Microsoft is pushing dot Net?
I've read your post under the subject 'VFP & Managed Code' and 'VFP In
Longhorn?' and it seems like you were very-very disappointed.



I consider my self as a novice in VFP, so I won't suggest any strategy
here. Instead, I am going to share what I am going to do about this. If
you found anything good for you, you are welcome to take it. If you're
against it, no sweat;



1. I will keep on using VFP --- not because I am committed to VFP but
because up to now, it is a programming tool that I mastered the most.
You mentioned in your older post that you won't start a new project with
VFP now. Well, in my case, if I have to learn dot Net first to start a
new project --- how shall I put it --- I am dead meat! I am a freelance
developer and most of my income comes from a new project. I cannot
depend on maintenance and upgrade alone.



2. I use VFP community as a place to learn and sharing ideas. If you
live in the US, lucky you! AFAIK, there are FoxPro devcons twice or
three times a year --- not to mention FoxPro users group meeting in most
states. I am not that lucky here, so I just use this ng to participate
in the community. I tried to start a vfp user group here, but it looks
like vfp developers are rare, not only in the US and Canada but also
here in Indonesia. I hope that I can go to a developer conference in US
or Canada someday, and if Microsoft would ever want to pull VFP, Bill
Gates must wait until I can afford to attend one of the vfp devcon
:D --- or he might as well pay my accomodation and travel expenses to
the devcon ;-)



3. I start to learn dot Net in my spare time. I choose VB.NET because
it's easier for me. I've bought two books on my local bookstore
(Programming Visual Basic.NET and Visual Basic.NET Programmer
Cookbooks). I've downloaded VFPToolkitNET from http://www.gotdotnet.com
(which made me disappointed that I bought Programmer Cookbooks. The
functions in theVFP toolkit make me feel at home!). I've downloaded the
examples from 101 VB.NET Application (which, imo, invaluable although it
is 30megs and I downloaded it via DUN), and currently, I'm downloading
VB.NET Resource Kit (200 megs --- now sounds ok since I've done this
when I downloaded VFP8). I am really looking forward to studying VB.NET.
I hope that after about a year studying, I can start to accept a simple
project with VB.NET. I will really love that, because somebody is going
to pay me while I'm learning ;-)



Anyway, it's just my 2 cents!



Regards,

Willianto







Brett O'Callaghan wrote:
> "Edhy Rijo" <erijo@msn.com.NO_SPAM> wrote:
>
>> VFP8 will be supported until 2010
>> Visual Basic .NET sdt 2002 will be supported until 2009
>> Visual Studio .NET Enterprise Developer 2003 will be supported until
>> 2010
>
>> Based on the above expected life, I don't see how support for VFP9 is
>> different than the rest?
>
> What good is "support" when you *can't* target the new Windows API?
> VFP apps will look, run and behave differently than what people will
> expect. Different = Bad in the market I'm afraid.
>
> More seriously, not running as managed code may cause serious user
> acceptance problems in the mid-long term. Make no mistake, Microsoft
> are pushing the managed code .NET line as hard as they've ever pushed
> anything. Users will expect our apps to work like all the other new
> apps work. And VFP can't do it.

Brett
Wed Nov 05 18:20:14 CST 2003

"Willianto" <willianto@remove-me.telkom-and-me.net> wrote:

>Why are you so upset about the fact that Microsoft is pushing dot Net?

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not "upset" at all. I'm doing pretty much
as you are, learning .NET in my "spare" time as an investment in the
future. ^1

I'm just curious if other people have the same interpretation of
Microsofts intents for VFP as I have, based on the last couple of
years. To me it seems blindingly obvious that its on the way out in
the 4-5 year time frame. Yes, you can still do good development upto
and after that time, but it will be increasingly marginalised. And
we're not exactly mainstream *now*. ;-)


^1 - .NET Opinion so far - Yes, some things seem more convoluted than
appears necessary at first, but once I developed some decent database
classes that work the way I want it's been smooth sailing. The
advantages of having a large of consistent framework is really
starting to pay off, and development (nothing serious so far) is a
pleasurable experience. And finally - don't *anyone* think they'll be
able to go from VFP/VB to .NET without some hard-core learning and
experimentation time. It's different!

Brett
Wed Nov 05 18:21:53 CST 2003

"Peter Rooney" <magnetix@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>And what *can* VFP do that other systems can't? Let's make a list.

The tightly integrated database stuff was a big advantage, no doubt.
I'm less certain how big an advantage it is in these days of back-end
agnostic apps. Sometimes it feels more of a hinderance to be honest.

Willianto
Wed Nov 05 23:29:01 CST 2003

Hi Brett:

> I'm just curious if other people have the same interpretation of
> Microsofts intents for VFP as I have, based on the last couple of
> years. To me it seems blindingly obvious that its on the way out in
> the 4-5 year time frame. Yes, you can still do good development upto
> and after that time, but it will be increasingly marginalised. And
> we're not exactly mainstream *now*. ;-)
Yes. I know what you mean. Back in 1999 when I decided to be a full-time
freelance developer, it was easy to choose between VB6 and VFP6 because
they came in one package and Microsoft promoted Visual Studio 98 (that
includes VFP) as the primary development platform for Windows family.
VFP don't have that privilege now. But IMO, everybody in VFP community
realized this. That's why everybody is join hands to strengthen the
community. A lot of things come from the community these last couple of
years: an idea to have a 'Powered by VFP' logo was one of them (although
Micro$oft lawyer said it was 're-branding' and illegal). A 10th
Anniversary Greeting to Microsoft is another one (no other community has
ever done that before). And the last one I can recall now is when VFP on
Linux vs. the EULA thing got lots of attention from developers (not only
vfp) communities. As Whil Hentzen said in his column, "... there is such
thing as bad publicity..."

In a nutshell, we have to pull Microsoft's attention. Burn a torch. Turn
on the light. This might not be enough to make Mr. Gate$ give 5 billion
dollars budget to VFP team (although we can always pray for that <lol>)
but at least it'll keep VFP afloat, and (for me) that's all I need to
make a decent living from VFP!

But of course, as a software developer I learn to do backups. Learning
dot Net is a backup for me. Install RedHat 9.0 on my P2-350 and try to
run VFP under Wine is another 'backup'. I'm sure anybody here realizes
that and they have (or will) take their own precaution steps.

>
>
> ^1 - .NET Opinion so far - Yes, some things seem more convoluted than
> appears necessary at first, but once I developed some decent database
> classes that work the way I want it's been smooth sailing. The
> advantages of having a large of consistent framework is really
> starting to pay off, and development (nothing serious so far) is a
> pleasurable experience. And finally - don't *anyone* think they'll be
> able to go from VFP/VB to .NET without some hard-core learning and
> experimentation time. It's different!

Congratulation for you to take the first step :-) I haven't done any
coding in vb.net yet. Not even the hello world. In fact, I have just
decided to learn dot Net this month. I am sure you can still see my post
about asking where to find the 'was-vfp-mpvs-and-now-dot-net-mvps'
people in this ng. I know that VB.NET is way different from VB6 --- not
to mention VFP. But it is interesting and challenging. I already
subscribe to microsoft.public.dotnet.language.vb, and read several posts
there on my spare time. I don't recognize all people there. Their names
don't sound familiar as the names in this ng. But this is one of the
backup steps I must take. And --- as in the programming world --- when
the 'main hard disk' is going fine, I might never need to use the
backup. But it's certainly worth the effort.



Regards,

Willianto

Willianto
Wed Nov 05 23:47:05 CST 2003

Hi Brett:

> I'm just curious if other people have the same interpretation of
> Microsofts intents for VFP as I have, based on the last couple of
> years. To me it seems blindingly obvious that its on the way out in
> the 4-5 year time frame. Yes, you can still do good development upto
> and after that time, but it will be increasingly marginalised. And
> we're not exactly mainstream now.
Yes. I know what you mean. Back in 1999 when I decided to be a full-time
freelance developer, it was easy to choose between VB6 and VFP6 because
they came in one package and Microsoft promoted Visual Studio 98 (that
includes VFP) as the primary development platform for Windows family.
VFP don't have that privilege now. But IMO, everybody in VFP community
realized this. That's why everybody is join hands to strengthen the
community. A lot of things come from the community these last couple of
years: an idea to have a 'Powered by VFP' logo was one of them (although
Micro$oft lawyer said it was 're-branding' and illegal). A 10th
Anniversary Greeting to Microsoft is another one (no other community has
ever done that before). And the last one I can recall now is when VFP on
Linux vs. the EULA thing got lots of attention from developers (not only
vfp) communities. As Whil Hentzen said in his column, "... there is such
thing as bad publicity..."

In a nutshell, we have to pull Microsoft's attention. Burn a torch. Turn
on the light. This might not be enough to make Mr. Gate$ give 5 billion
dollars budget to VFP team (although we can always pray for that <>)
but at least it'll keep VFP afloat, and (for me) that's all I need to
make a decent living from VFP!

But of course, as a software developer I learn to do backups. Learning
dot Net is a backup for me. Install RedHat 9.0 on my P2-350 and try to
run VFP under Wine is another 'backup'. I'm sure anybody here realizes
that and they have (or will) take their own precaution steps.

>
> ^1 - .NET Opinion so far - Yes, some things seem more convoluted than
> appears necessary at first, but once I developed some decent database
> classes that work the way I want it's been smooth sailing. The
> advantages of having a large of consistent framework is really
> starting to pay off, and development (nothing serious so far) is a
> pleasurable experience. And finally - don't anyone think they'll be
> able to go from VFP/VB to .NET without some hard-core learning and
> experimentation time. It's different!

Congratulation for you to take the first step I haven't done any
coding in vb.net yet. Not even the hello world. In fact, I have just
decided to learn dot Net this month. I am sure you can still see my post
about asking where to find the 'was-vfp-mpvs-and-now-dot-net-mvps'
people in this ng. I know that VB.NET is way different from VB6 --- not
to mention VFP. But it is interesting and challenging. I already
subscribe to microsoft.public.dotnet.language.vb, and read several posts
there on my spare time. I don't recognize all people there. Their names
don't sound familiar as the names in this ng. But this is one of the
backup steps I must take. And --- as in the programming world --- when
the 'main hard disk' is going fine, I might never need to use the
backup. But it's certainly worth the effort.

Regards,

Willianto


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