Mike Feltman at LA Fox April 5 -- Active FoxPro Pages

Using Active FoxPro Pages with Visual FoxExpress

Visual FoxExpress is an n-tier framework for Visual FoxPro with a very
rich object model and powerful data dictionary. In this session Mike
will demonstrate classes he's created to make use of the Visual
FoxExpress object model for web site development. Although the session
will focus on AFP, the techniques covered here will also apply to using
VFE with Web Connection, (Class) Active Server Pages and ASP.NET.

** Note that this is being held at a special date -- April 5 (not April
12) **

See you at LA Fox!

http://www.lafox.org

Ook
Tue Mar 22 09:44:18 CST 2005

Has anyone here used VFE and VPM (Visual Promatrix)? I may end up doing
another VFP job or two this year, and I'm looking at different frameworks.
I've used a framework for several years, and have also worked without and I
know from firsthand experience how much time a framework can save (or waste
if you don't have the right framework). I would be interested in comparisons
between the two.


"Bill Anderson" <billandnospam@primenet.com> wrote in message
news:%23$vDXbrLFHA.656@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
> Using Active FoxPro Pages with Visual FoxExpress
>
> Visual FoxExpress is an n-tier framework for Visual FoxPro with a very
> rich object model and powerful data dictionary. In this session Mike
> will demonstrate classes he's created to make use of the Visual
> FoxExpress object model for web site development. Although the session
> will focus on AFP, the techniques covered here will also apply to using
> VFE with Web Connection, (Class) Active Server Pages and ASP.NET.
>
> ** Note that this is being held at a special date -- April 5 (not April
> 12) **
>
> See you at LA Fox!
>
> http://www.lafox.org

David
Tue Mar 22 10:58:21 CST 2005

Ook,

http://fox.wikis.com/wc.dll?Wiki~CategoryFrameworks

--
df - Microsoft MVP FoxPro http://www.geocities.com/df_foxpro

"Ook" <usenet@nospam.zootal.nomorespam.com> wrote in message
news:u5tNDYvLFHA.132@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> Has anyone here used VFE and VPM (Visual Promatrix)? I may end up doing
> another VFP job or two this year, and I'm looking at different frameworks.
> I've used a framework for several years, and have also worked without and
> I
> know from firsthand experience how much time a framework can save (or
> waste
> if you don't have the right framework). I would be interested in
> comparisons
> between the two.

Dan
Tue Mar 22 11:14:07 CST 2005

I've used both, but it's been several years and both were at a client so I
had no say in the matter.

Admittedly, they may have changed a lot but VPM drove me nuts. It took over
the entire IDE. CTRL-F in a method window closed the designer instead of
doing a Find, among other things.

VFE seemed more natural to me, but admittedly that's probably because of its
Codebook heritage. (I was involved in the making of Codebook. <s>)

I believe both vendors have a money-back trial period. You could try both
and see which one "feels" better to you.

Dan

Ook wrote:
> Has anyone here used VFE and VPM (Visual Promatrix)? I may end up
> doing another VFP job or two this year, and I'm looking at different
> frameworks. I've used a framework for several years, and have also
> worked without and I know from firsthand experience how much time a
> framework can save (or waste if you don't have the right framework).
> I would be interested in comparisons between the two.

Ook
Fri Mar 25 09:34:19 CST 2005

I used one of them for several years, and used to be one of their MVPs, but
I've since stopped using it. If I end up doing another large scale VFP job,
I'd probably find another framework, hence my interest in the differences
between VPM and VFP.


"Dan Freeman" <spam@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:eyy4PKwLFHA.1472@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
> I've used both, but it's been several years and both were at a client so I
> had no say in the matter.
>
> Admittedly, they may have changed a lot but VPM drove me nuts. It took
> over
> the entire IDE. CTRL-F in a method window closed the designer instead of
> doing a Find, among other things.
>
> VFE seemed more natural to me, but admittedly that's probably because of
> its
> Codebook heritage. (I was involved in the making of Codebook. <s>)
>
> I believe both vendors have a money-back trial period. You could try both
> and see which one "feels" better to you.
>
> Dan
>
> Ook wrote:
>> Has anyone here used VFE and VPM (Visual Promatrix)? I may end up
>> doing another VFP job or two this year, and I'm looking at different
>> frameworks. I've used a framework for several years, and have also
>> worked without and I know from firsthand experience how much time a
>> framework can save (or waste if you don't have the right framework).
>> I would be interested in comparisons between the two.
>
>

Ook
Fri Mar 25 09:54:03 CST 2005

Interesting page. Looks like a lot of "frameworks" are dead, while a few
major ones are still hanging in there. What I'd like to see is a side by
side comparison.


"David Frankenbach" <sendnospam@sendnospam.net> wrote in message
news:%237JAcBwLFHA.1176@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
> Ook,
>
> http://fox.wikis.com/wc.dll?Wiki~CategoryFrameworks
>
> --
> df - Microsoft MVP FoxPro http://www.geocities.com/df_foxpro
>
> "Ook" <usenet@nospam.zootal.nomorespam.com> wrote in message
> news:u5tNDYvLFHA.132@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>> Has anyone here used VFE and VPM (Visual Promatrix)? I may end up doing
>> another VFP job or two this year, and I'm looking at different
>> frameworks.
>> I've used a framework for several years, and have also worked without and
>> I
>> know from firsthand experience how much time a framework can save (or
>> waste
>> if you don't have the right framework). I would be interested in
>> comparisons
>> between the two.
>
>

Ook
Fri Mar 25 11:32:20 CST 2005

Oops...VPM and VFE lol and throw VMP in while we are at it....


"Ook" <MSNews@UpYoursSpammer.zootal.nomorespam.com> wrote in message
news:ORJH6jVMFHA.244@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
>I used one of them for several years, and used to be one of their MVPs, but
>I've since stopped using it. If I end up doing another large scale VFP job,
>I'd probably find another framework, hence my interest in the differences
>between VPM and VFP.
>
>
> "Dan Freeman" <spam@microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:eyy4PKwLFHA.1472@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>> I've used both, but it's been several years and both were at a client so
>> I
>> had no say in the matter.
>>
>> Admittedly, they may have changed a lot but VPM drove me nuts. It took
>> over
>> the entire IDE. CTRL-F in a method window closed the designer instead of
>> doing a Find, among other things.
>>
>> VFE seemed more natural to me, but admittedly that's probably because of
>> its
>> Codebook heritage. (I was involved in the making of Codebook. <s>)
>>
>> I believe both vendors have a money-back trial period. You could try both
>> and see which one "feels" better to you.
>>
>> Dan
>>
>> Ook wrote:
>>> Has anyone here used VFE and VPM (Visual Promatrix)? I may end up
>>> doing another VFP job or two this year, and I'm looking at different
>>> frameworks. I've used a framework for several years, and have also
>>> worked without and I know from firsthand experience how much time a
>>> framework can save (or waste if you don't have the right framework).
>>> I would be interested in comparisons between the two.
>>
>>
>
>

Cindy
Sat Mar 26 14:18:32 CST 2005

Hi Ook,

Read the pages in the links in the green area of this page:

http://fox.wikis.com/wc.dll?Wiki~FrameworkFeatureChart

--
Cindy Winegarden MCSD, Microsoft Visual Foxpro MVP
cindy_winegarden@msn.com www.cindywinegarden.com
Blog: http://spaces.msn.com/members/cindywinegarden


"Ook" <MSNews@UpYoursSpammer.zootal.nomorespam.com> wrote in message
news:O86%23jrVMFHA.2788@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> .....What I'd like to see is a side by
> side comparison.

Ook
Sat Mar 26 17:25:59 CST 2005

Very, very nice, thanks for the link. About 5-6 years ago I toyed with the
idea of making my own framework. Instead I choose to use a commercial
framework. Unfortunately, the one I choose was a very high level framework
that was not very forgiving of efforts to do things that are not the
"framework's way". My clients wanted highly customized applications with
off-the-beaten-path bells and whistles.Getting off of the beaten path turned
out to be extremely time consuming. Something as simple of using, for
example, an ActiveX charting control on a form turned out to be difficult
and very time consuming because the framework didn't get along with the
control. I eventually stopped using the framework because I got sick and
tired of all of the time I was spending debugging the framework's code to
see why this or that feature was not working as advertised. Some of the time
it was my fault in that I didn't set up something right, either due to poor
documentation or my making mistakes. Other times it was because of bugs in
the framework. And when something did not work, there would be no clue given
as to why - it just would not work. I have spent hours and hours tracing
through framework code to find that one missing setting.

So I'm looking for a framework that will let me do what I want without
getting in my way. I need a framework that makes it easy to make
jump-through-flaming-hoop forms, but one that doesn't take total control of
the application and force you to do things the framework's way. Honestly, I
regret my decision to not make my own framework. If I planned on spending
much more time with VFP I would still make my own, but I'm slowly but surely
working my way out of VFP into other technologies. My current project is a
VFP to dot net conversion, and I hope to use that experience to work on more
dot net projects. Using my VFP expertise to survive is my Plan B, and I'm
doing some of the groundwork now in case I end up going that way. <gasps for
breath>....


"Cindy Winegarden" <cindy_winegarden@msn.com> wrote in message
news:%230PiNHkMFHA.688@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> Hi Ook,
>
> Read the pages in the links in the green area of this page:
>
> http://fox.wikis.com/wc.dll?Wiki~FrameworkFeatureChart
>
> --
> Cindy Winegarden MCSD, Microsoft Visual Foxpro MVP
> cindy_winegarden@msn.com www.cindywinegarden.com
> Blog: http://spaces.msn.com/members/cindywinegarden
>
>
> "Ook" <MSNews@UpYoursSpammer.zootal.nomorespam.com> wrote in message
> news:O86%23jrVMFHA.2788@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>> .....What I'd like to see is a side by
>> side comparison.
>
>

swdev2
Sun Mar 27 10:50:08 CST 2005

Well OOK - why didn't you say so in the first place instead of hijacking
this thread ?
http://www.avasoft.com/TFox.htm

go forth and be done, la ..
mondo regards [Bill]
--
"Ook" <MSNews@UpYoursSpammer.zootal.nomorespam.com> wrote in message
news:uzRCSNmMFHA.3340@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
[snip]
> So I'm looking for a framework that will let me do what I want without
> getting in my way. I need a framework that makes it easy to make
> jump-through-flaming-hoop forms, but one that doesn't take total control
of
> the application and force you to do things the framework's way. [snip]

Edhy
Sun Mar 27 12:10:41 CST 2005

Hi Ook,

As you may know, I use the Visual ProMatrix framework for over 5 years now.
I am not saying that VPM is better than any other framework out there, they
all have their good and bad things. What I have learned so far is that by
using a commercial framework, you have to make adjustment in order to work
with the framework and not against it.

Working with some ActiveX in VFP has always been kind of difficult, since as
a VFP developers we are used to have the controlsource take care of the data
binding in VFP controls, not the same history with ActiveX controllers.

Below are some forms I developed with several ActiveXs controls and still
using the framework classes to take advantage of it and I am sure that if
you look at the VPM Sample application, my applications don't look like the
boxed wizards of the framework, but still I can use all the functionality in
the framework to work my data:

http://www.progytech.com/Pictures/Desktop.png

http://www.progytech.com/Pictures/ReceiveCards.PNG

http://www.progytech.com/Pictures/IRSForm.PNG

--
Edhy Rijo
www.progytech.com
Bronx NY
Visual ProMatrix MVP Life

Pete
Sun Mar 27 15:31:27 CST 2005

Edhy,

Nice screens! I recognize DBI LisBar, but who does the grid list belong to?

Pete




"Edhy Rijo" <erijo@msn.com.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
news:eDG9ChvMFHA.3708@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
> Hi Ook,
>
> As you may know, I use the Visual ProMatrix framework for over 5 years
> now.
> I am not saying that VPM is better than any other framework out there,
> they
> all have their good and bad things. What I have learned so far is that by
> using a commercial framework, you have to make adjustment in order to work
> with the framework and not against it.
>
> Working with some ActiveX in VFP has always been kind of difficult, since
> as
> a VFP developers we are used to have the controlsource take care of the
> data
> binding in VFP controls, not the same history with ActiveX controllers.
>
> Below are some forms I developed with several ActiveXs controls and still
> using the framework classes to take advantage of it and I am sure that if
> you look at the VPM Sample application, my applications don't look like
> the
> boxed wizards of the framework, but still I can use all the functionality
> in
> the framework to work my data:
>
> http://www.progytech.com/Pictures/Desktop.png
>
> http://www.progytech.com/Pictures/ReceiveCards.PNG
>
> http://www.progytech.com/Pictures/IRSForm.PNG
>
> --
> Edhy Rijo
> www.progytech.com
> Bronx NY
> Visual ProMatrix MVP Life
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Ook
Sun Mar 27 17:06:28 CST 2005


"Edhy Rijo" <erijo@msn.com.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
news:eDG9ChvMFHA.3708@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
> Hi Ook,
>
> As you may know, I use the Visual ProMatrix framework for over 5 years
> now.
> I am not saying that VPM is better than any other framework out there,
> they
> all have their good and bad things. What I have learned so far is that by
> using a commercial framework, you have to make adjustment in order to work
> with the framework and not against it.

I agree to an extant, but in my case the framework I was using required more
of an adjustment then I was willing to make.

Ook
Sun Mar 27 17:05:24 CST 2005

Um, sorry about the thread hijack - you know, one message leads to
another.....

> The biggest crime a framework can make is to box the developer in.

That is what happened to me. I wanted to do this, the framework wanted to do
that, and my choices were to give in and do it the frameworks way (which in
many cases caused screams of anger from revolting users)....(users that
revolted, although some of my users are revolting also....), or spend hours
and hours and hours making it work my way.

"swdev2" <wsanders@dotnetconversions.bob.net> wrote in message
news:OKa2vinMFHA.2468@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> Well OOK - why didn't you say so in the first place instead of hijacking
> this thread ?
> http://www.avasoft.com/TFox.htm
>
> go forth and be done, la ..
> mondo regards [Bill]
> --
> "Ook" <MSNews@UpYoursSpammer.zootal.nomorespam.com> wrote in message
> news:uzRCSNmMFHA.3340@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
> [snip]
>> So I'm looking for a framework that will let me do what I want without
>> getting in my way. I need a framework that makes it easy to make
>> jump-through-flaming-hoop forms, but one that doesn't take total control
> of
>> the application and force you to do things the framework's way. [snip]
>
>

Edhy
Sun Mar 27 22:22:26 CST 2005

Hi Pete,

Thanks for the compliments!

I use the ctExplorer from DBI http://www.dbi-tech.com/ctExplorer.asp it has
several 5 controls that integrates all in one or individually, ListBar,
ListView, Tree View, Browser View and Tabs, and it also handles all the
image in an integrated Image Control and a Splitter control. It is just one
file with a lot of functionality and I can control what to show in each
instantiation. All DBI controls has been tested in VFP and it also comes
with some nice sample of how to implement them in VFP.

My point here was to show that not matter what Framework you use (at least
for Visual ProMatrix) you have control to build the right type of
application your customer needs and they don't have to look alike <s>.

--
Edhy Rijo
www.progytech.com
Bronx NY


"Pete Bronson" <pbronson@myyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:S5KdnSWYeLGyu9rfRVn-tg@giganews.com...
> Edhy,
>
> Nice screens! I recognize DBI LisBar, but who does the grid list belong
> to?
>
> Pete
>
>
>
>
> "Edhy Rijo" <erijo@msn.com.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
> news:eDG9ChvMFHA.3708@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>> Hi Ook,
>>
>> As you may know, I use the Visual ProMatrix framework for over 5 years
>> now.
>> I am not saying that VPM is better than any other framework out there,
>> they
>> all have their good and bad things. What I have learned so far is that
>> by
>> using a commercial framework, you have to make adjustment in order to
>> work
>> with the framework and not against it.
>>
>> Working with some ActiveX in VFP has always been kind of difficult, since
>> as
>> a VFP developers we are used to have the controlsource take care of the
>> data
>> binding in VFP controls, not the same history with ActiveX controllers.
>>
>> Below are some forms I developed with several ActiveXs controls and still
>> using the framework classes to take advantage of it and I am sure that if
>> you look at the VPM Sample application, my applications don't look like
>> the
>> boxed wizards of the framework, but still I can use all the functionality
>> in
>> the framework to work my data:
>>
>> http://www.progytech.com/Pictures/Desktop.png
>>
>> http://www.progytech.com/Pictures/ReceiveCards.PNG
>>
>> http://www.progytech.com/Pictures/IRSForm.PNG
>>
>> --
>> Edhy Rijo
>> www.progytech.com
>> Bronx NY
>> Visual ProMatrix MVP Life
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

Matthew
Mon Mar 28 20:26:47 CST 2005

Hi Ook,

I have been using VFE for five years. It helps me to do trivial jobs and
provide a framework that I can follow to build a three tier program.
Nevertheless, I have to follow the way the framework structure. If a
"framework" allows you to do whatever you want to do, then it is not a
"framework".

Matthew

"Ook" <MSNews@UpYoursSpammer.zootal.nomorespam.com> ¼¶¼g©ó¶l¥ó·s»D:uI4sPlyMFHA.1396@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> Um, sorry about the thread hijack - you know, one message leads to
> another.....
>
>> The biggest crime a framework can make is to box the developer in.
>
> That is what happened to me. I wanted to do this, the framework wanted to
> do that, and my choices were to give in and do it the frameworks way
> (which in many cases caused screams of anger from revolting
> users)....(users that revolted, although some of my users are revolting
> also....), or spend hours and hours and hours making it work my way.
>
> "swdev2" <wsanders@dotnetconversions.bob.net> wrote in message
> news:OKa2vinMFHA.2468@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
>> Well OOK - why didn't you say so in the first place instead of hijacking
>> this thread ?
>> http://www.avasoft.com/TFox.htm
>>
>> go forth and be done, la ..
>> mondo regards [Bill]
>> --
>> "Ook" <MSNews@UpYoursSpammer.zootal.nomorespam.com> wrote in message
>> news:uzRCSNmMFHA.3340@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>> [snip]
>>> So I'm looking for a framework that will let me do what I want without
>>> getting in my way. I need a framework that makes it easy to make
>>> jump-through-flaming-hoop forms, but one that doesn't take total control
>> of
>>> the application and force you to do things the framework's way. [snip]
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

Ook
Mon Mar 28 20:42:14 CST 2005

Edhy, have you ever had any problems with the control asserting itself as
_screen.ActiveForm? VPM does (or at least used to) expect to find VPM forms
as the activeform, and some activex controls will assert themselves and
cause a lot of problems. I'm not sure about the controls you are using, but
I've used, for example, teechart (not Microsoft's lame tchart control),
which is a very nice charting control, and I had to spend hours and hours
getting it work.


"Edhy Rijo" <erijo@msn.com.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
news:ePaR420MFHA.3420@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> Hi Pete,
>
> Thanks for the compliments!
>
> I use the ctExplorer from DBI http://www.dbi-tech.com/ctExplorer.asp it
> has several 5 controls that integrates all in one or individually,
> ListBar, ListView, Tree View, Browser View and Tabs, and it also handles
> all the image in an integrated Image Control and a Splitter control. It
> is just one file with a lot of functionality and I can control what to
> show in each instantiation. All DBI controls has been tested in VFP and
> it also comes with some nice sample of how to implement them in VFP.
>
> My point here was to show that not matter what Framework you use (at least
> for Visual ProMatrix) you have control to build the right type of
> application your customer needs and they don't have to look alike <s>.
>
> --
> Edhy Rijo
> www.progytech.com
> Bronx NY
>
>
> "Pete Bronson" <pbronson@myyahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:S5KdnSWYeLGyu9rfRVn-tg@giganews.com...
>> Edhy,
>>
>> Nice screens! I recognize DBI LisBar, but who does the grid list belong
>> to?
>>
>> Pete
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Edhy Rijo" <erijo@msn.com.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
>> news:eDG9ChvMFHA.3708@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>> Hi Ook,
>>>
>>> As you may know, I use the Visual ProMatrix framework for over 5 years
>>> now.
>>> I am not saying that VPM is better than any other framework out there,
>>> they
>>> all have their good and bad things. What I have learned so far is that
>>> by
>>> using a commercial framework, you have to make adjustment in order to
>>> work
>>> with the framework and not against it.
>>>
>>> Working with some ActiveX in VFP has always been kind of difficult,
>>> since as
>>> a VFP developers we are used to have the controlsource take care of the
>>> data
>>> binding in VFP controls, not the same history with ActiveX controllers.
>>>
>>> Below are some forms I developed with several ActiveXs controls and
>>> still
>>> using the framework classes to take advantage of it and I am sure that
>>> if
>>> you look at the VPM Sample application, my applications don't look like
>>> the
>>> boxed wizards of the framework, but still I can use all the
>>> functionality in
>>> the framework to work my data:
>>>
>>> http://www.progytech.com/Pictures/Desktop.png
>>>
>>> http://www.progytech.com/Pictures/ReceiveCards.PNG
>>>
>>> http://www.progytech.com/Pictures/IRSForm.PNG
>>>
>>> --
>>> Edhy Rijo
>>> www.progytech.com
>>> Bronx NY
>>> Visual ProMatrix MVP Life
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

Ook
Tue Mar 29 12:50:25 CST 2005

My issue isn't doing what I want versus what the framework wants, or the
ability to do whatever I want. My issue is the degree of flexibility. Some
frameworks allow a greater degree of flexibility then others. I agree that
you have to do things the frameworks way, but when the "frameworks way" is
too restrictive, then I have a problem with it. One of the things I'm
looking for in a framework is not the ability to do whatever I want, but
will the framework let me do the specific things I want to do?

My other heartburn, while I'm complaining about frameworks, had to do with
immature features in the framework I was using. Some of the features I liked
the most were buggy, and in some cases unusable. This bit me very hard in
one application, and I ended up eating about 100 hours of free progamming
time because I had to spend a lot of time reworking several of the forms.
So, another thing I look for, is the maturity of the features and
specifically the features I will be using.


"Matthew" <tokaho_nospam@nospam.bcluster.on-nets.com> wrote in message
news:efEjbaANFHA.1176@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> Hi Ook,
>
> I have been using VFE for five years. It helps me to do trivial jobs and
> provide a framework that I can follow to build a three tier program.
> Nevertheless, I have to follow the way the framework structure. If a
> "framework" allows you to do whatever you want to do, then it is not a
> "framework".
>
> Matthew
>
> "Ook" <MSNews@UpYoursSpammer.zootal.nomorespam.com>
¼¶¼g©ó¶l¥ó·s»D:uI4sPlyMFHA.1396@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> > Um, sorry about the thread hijack - you know, one message leads to
> > another.....
> >
> >> The biggest crime a framework can make is to box the developer in.
> >
> > That is what happened to me. I wanted to do this, the framework wanted
to
> > do that, and my choices were to give in and do it the frameworks way
> > (which in many cases caused screams of anger from revolting
> > users)....(users that revolted, although some of my users are revolting
> > also....), or spend hours and hours and hours making it work my way.
> >
> > "swdev2" <wsanders@dotnetconversions.bob.net> wrote in message
> > news:OKa2vinMFHA.2468@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> >> Well OOK - why didn't you say so in the first place instead of
hijacking
> >> this thread ?
> >> http://www.avasoft.com/TFox.htm
> >>
> >> go forth and be done, la ..
> >> mondo regards [Bill]
> >> --
> >> "Ook" <MSNews@UpYoursSpammer.zootal.nomorespam.com> wrote in message
> >> news:uzRCSNmMFHA.3340@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
> >> [snip]
> >>> So I'm looking for a framework that will let me do what I want without
> >>> getting in my way. I need a framework that makes it easy to make
> >>> jump-through-flaming-hoop forms, but one that doesn't take total
control
> >> of
> >>> the application and force you to do things the framework's way. [snip]
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

mspratt
Wed Mar 30 10:45:30 CST 2005

Hi Ook,

Wha wha wha.

Hentzenwerke has a book out regarding writing your OWN framework. I
have it but it's not in front of me right now so I can't tell the
title or author.

Regards,

Mike

On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 10:50:25 -0800, "Ook"
<usenet@nospam.zootal.nomorespam.com> wrote:

>My issue isn't doing what I want versus what the framework wants, or the
>ability to do whatever I want. My issue is the degree of flexibility. Some
>frameworks allow a greater degree of flexibility then others. I agree that
>you have to do things the frameworks way, but when the "frameworks way" is
>too restrictive, then I have a problem with it. One of the things I'm
>looking for in a framework is not the ability to do whatever I want, but
>will the framework let me do the specific things I want to do?
>
>My other heartburn, while I'm complaining about frameworks, had to do with
>immature features in the framework I was using. Some of the features I liked
>the most were buggy, and in some cases unusable. This bit me very hard in
>one application, and I ended up eating about 100 hours of free progamming
>time because I had to spend a lot of time reworking several of the forms.
>So, another thing I look for, is the maturity of the features and
>specifically the features I will be using.
>
>
>"Matthew" <tokaho_nospam@nospam.bcluster.on-nets.com> wrote in message
>news:efEjbaANFHA.1176@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>> Hi Ook,
>>
>> I have been using VFE for five years. It helps me to do trivial jobs and
>> provide a framework that I can follow to build a three tier program.
>> Nevertheless, I have to follow the way the framework structure. If a
>> "framework" allows you to do whatever you want to do, then it is not a
>> "framework".
>>
>> Matthew
>>
>> "Ook" <MSNews@UpYoursSpammer.zootal.nomorespam.com>
>¼¶¼g©ó¶l¥ó·s»D:uI4sPlyMFHA.1396@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>> > Um, sorry about the thread hijack - you know, one message leads to
>> > another.....
>> >
>> >> The biggest crime a framework can make is to box the developer in.
>> >
>> > That is what happened to me. I wanted to do this, the framework wanted
>to
>> > do that, and my choices were to give in and do it the frameworks way
>> > (which in many cases caused screams of anger from revolting
>> > users)....(users that revolted, although some of my users are revolting
>> > also....), or spend hours and hours and hours making it work my way.
>> >
>> > "swdev2" <wsanders@dotnetconversions.bob.net> wrote in message
>> > news:OKa2vinMFHA.2468@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
>> >> Well OOK - why didn't you say so in the first place instead of
>hijacking
>> >> this thread ?
>> >> http://www.avasoft.com/TFox.htm
>> >>
>> >> go forth and be done, la ..
>> >> mondo regards [Bill]
>> >> --
>> >> "Ook" <MSNews@UpYoursSpammer.zootal.nomorespam.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:uzRCSNmMFHA.3340@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>> >> [snip]
>> >>> So I'm looking for a framework that will let me do what I want without
>> >>> getting in my way. I need a framework that makes it easy to make
>> >>> jump-through-flaming-hoop forms, but one that doesn't take total
>control
>> >> of
>> >>> the application and force you to do things the framework's way. [snip]
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>

Ook
Wed Mar 30 11:17:11 CST 2005

I wish I had read that book 5-6 years ago :-P Biggest mistake I made was to
choose a commercial framework instead of writing my own. Back then I had the
time to write my own, and was planning to stick with Fox for a few more
years.


"Mike Pratt" <mspratt@losethis.xmission.com> wrote in message
news:424ad689.4120084@207.46.248.16...
> Hi Ook,
>
> Wha wha wha.
>
> Hentzenwerke has a book out regarding writing your OWN framework. I
> have it but it's not in front of me right now so I can't tell the
> title or author.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mike
>
> On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 10:50:25 -0800, "Ook"
> <usenet@nospam.zootal.nomorespam.com> wrote:
>
> >My issue isn't doing what I want versus what the framework wants, or the
> >ability to do whatever I want. My issue is the degree of flexibility.
Some
> >frameworks allow a greater degree of flexibility then others. I agree
that
> >you have to do things the frameworks way, but when the "frameworks way"
is
> >too restrictive, then I have a problem with it. One of the things I'm
> >looking for in a framework is not the ability to do whatever I want, but
> >will the framework let me do the specific things I want to do?
> >
> >My other heartburn, while I'm complaining about frameworks, had to do
with
> >immature features in the framework I was using. Some of the features I
liked
> >the most were buggy, and in some cases unusable. This bit me very hard in
> >one application, and I ended up eating about 100 hours of free progamming
> >time because I had to spend a lot of time reworking several of the forms.
> >So, another thing I look for, is the maturity of the features and
> >specifically the features I will be using.
> >
> >
> >"Matthew" <tokaho_nospam@nospam.bcluster.on-nets.com> wrote in message
> >news:efEjbaANFHA.1176@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> >> Hi Ook,
> >>
> >> I have been using VFE for five years. It helps me to do trivial jobs
and
> >> provide a framework that I can follow to build a three tier program.
> >> Nevertheless, I have to follow the way the framework structure. If a
> >> "framework" allows you to do whatever you want to do, then it is not a
> >> "framework".
> >>
> >> Matthew
> >>
> >> "Ook" <MSNews@UpYoursSpammer.zootal.nomorespam.com>
> >¼¶¼g©ó¶l¥ó·s»D:uI4sPlyMFHA.1396@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> >> > Um, sorry about the thread hijack - you know, one message leads to
> >> > another.....
> >> >
> >> >> The biggest crime a framework can make is to box the developer in.
> >> >
> >> > That is what happened to me. I wanted to do this, the framework
wanted
> >to
> >> > do that, and my choices were to give in and do it the frameworks way
> >> > (which in many cases caused screams of anger from revolting
> >> > users)....(users that revolted, although some of my users are
revolting
> >> > also....), or spend hours and hours and hours making it work my way.
> >> >
> >> > "swdev2" <wsanders@dotnetconversions.bob.net> wrote in message
> >> > news:OKa2vinMFHA.2468@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> >> >> Well OOK - why didn't you say so in the first place instead of
> >hijacking
> >> >> this thread ?
> >> >> http://www.avasoft.com/TFox.htm
> >> >>
> >> >> go forth and be done, la ..
> >> >> mondo regards [Bill]
> >> >> --
> >> >> "Ook" <MSNews@UpYoursSpammer.zootal.nomorespam.com> wrote in message
> >> >> news:uzRCSNmMFHA.3340@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
> >> >> [snip]
> >> >>> So I'm looking for a framework that will let me do what I want
without
> >> >>> getting in my way. I need a framework that makes it easy to make
> >> >>> jump-through-flaming-hoop forms, but one that doesn't take total
> >control
> >> >> of
> >> >>> the application and force you to do things the framework's way.
[snip]
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
>

Dan
Wed Mar 30 11:53:49 CST 2005

The pain of writing a framework doesn't come from the initial months of
engineering and writing it.

It comes from throwing it all away and writing it again once you've figured
out what you REALLY wanted it to do in the first place. ;-)

Dan

Ook wrote:
> I wish I had read that book 5-6 years ago :-P Biggest mistake I made
> was to choose a commercial framework instead of writing my own. Back
> then I had the time to write my own, and was planning to stick with
> Fox for a few more years.

Ook
Wed Mar 30 12:20:55 CST 2005

Back then that might have been more of an issue, but today I have learned to
expect this. When you design a framework (or any large complex system), your
requirements are not always carved in granite, you aren't exactly sure how
you will handle this or that, etc. You do a lot of prototyping, a lot of
experimentation, a lot of testing. However, today, I have 5 years of
experience with a commercial framework, I've learned a lot more about system
development and lifecycles and different development methodologies, risk
management, etc., and I have a much better idea of what I want it to do, and
not do, and how I want it to work. And you know what? I'd probably still put
in all this time and then throw it out and start over LOL :-P


"Dan Freeman" <spam@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:uY0guFVNFHA.2704@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
> The pain of writing a framework doesn't come from the initial months of
> engineering and writing it.
>
> It comes from throwing it all away and writing it again once you've
figured
> out what you REALLY wanted it to do in the first place. ;-)
>
> Dan
>
> Ook wrote:
> > I wish I had read that book 5-6 years ago :-P Biggest mistake I made
> > was to choose a commercial framework instead of writing my own. Back
> > then I had the time to write my own, and was planning to stick with
> > Fox for a few more years.
>
>

Edhy
Wed Mar 30 21:24:05 CST 2005

Ook,

I never have had that problem, VPM creates and _SCREEN array property where
all forms are store there and you can find the correct reference to them
instead of using _SCREEN.ActiveForm. I don't remember when that was
implemented, but I have been using DBI controls since VPM6. The latest
version (VPME9.1 currently in Beta
http://www.promatrix.com/news/vpm%20enterprise%2091.htm) is a major upgrade
to the framework, most of it will be for the Data Manager to better handle
the data, even though what we have in the current version is pretty good, as
you may know VPM does not use VFP referential integrity, it does handle it
with its own proprietary RI engine.

I know other users are using other activex controls like the DBI Toolbar.

What version of VPM are/where you using?

--
Edhy Rijo
www.progytech.com
Bronx NY


"Ook" <MSNews@UpYoursSpammer.zootal.nomorespam.com> wrote in message
news:uH2$LSBNFHA.2704@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
> Edhy, have you ever had any problems with the control asserting itself as
> _screen.ActiveForm? VPM does (or at least used to) expect to find VPM
> forms as the activeform, and some activex controls will assert themselves
> and cause a lot of problems. I'm not sure about the controls you are
> using, but I've used, for example, teechart (not Microsoft's lame tchart
> control), which is a very nice charting control, and I had to spend hours
> and hours getting it work.
>
>
> "Edhy Rijo" <erijo@msn.com.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
> news:ePaR420MFHA.3420@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
>> Hi Pete,
>>
>> Thanks for the compliments!
>>
>> I use the ctExplorer from DBI http://www.dbi-tech.com/ctExplorer.asp it
>> has several 5 controls that integrates all in one or individually,
>> ListBar, ListView, Tree View, Browser View and Tabs, and it also handles
>> all the image in an integrated Image Control and a Splitter control. It
>> is just one file with a lot of functionality and I can control what to
>> show in each instantiation. All DBI controls has been tested in VFP and
>> it also comes with some nice sample of how to implement them in VFP.
>>
>> My point here was to show that not matter what Framework you use (at
>> least for Visual ProMatrix) you have control to build the right type of
>> application your customer needs and they don't have to look alike <s>.
>>
>> --
>> Edhy Rijo
>> www.progytech.com
>> Bronx NY
>>
>>
>> "Pete Bronson" <pbronson@myyahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:S5KdnSWYeLGyu9rfRVn-tg@giganews.com...
>>> Edhy,
>>>
>>> Nice screens! I recognize DBI LisBar, but who does the grid list belong
>>> to?
>>>
>>> Pete
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Edhy Rijo" <erijo@msn.com.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
>>> news:eDG9ChvMFHA.3708@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>>> Hi Ook,
>>>>
>>>> As you may know, I use the Visual ProMatrix framework for over 5 years
>>>> now.
>>>> I am not saying that VPM is better than any other framework out there,
>>>> they
>>>> all have their good and bad things. What I have learned so far is that
>>>> by
>>>> using a commercial framework, you have to make adjustment in order to
>>>> work
>>>> with the framework and not against it.
>>>>
>>>> Working with some ActiveX in VFP has always been kind of difficult,
>>>> since as
>>>> a VFP developers we are used to have the controlsource take care of the
>>>> data
>>>> binding in VFP controls, not the same history with ActiveX controllers.
>>>>
>>>> Below are some forms I developed with several ActiveXs controls and
>>>> still
>>>> using the framework classes to take advantage of it and I am sure that
>>>> if
>>>> you look at the VPM Sample application, my applications don't look like
>>>> the
>>>> boxed wizards of the framework, but still I can use all the
>>>> functionality in
>>>> the framework to work my data:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.progytech.com/Pictures/Desktop.png
>>>>
>>>> http://www.progytech.com/Pictures/ReceiveCards.PNG
>>>>
>>>> http://www.progytech.com/Pictures/IRSForm.PNG
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Edhy Rijo
>>>> www.progytech.com
>>>> Bronx NY
>>>> Visual ProMatrix MVP Life
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>