Hello All,

I develop hardware and software products that provide backup services for
files and hard drives.
Currently we are trying to solve a problem when running a system with two
internal hard drives that are bootable. Our tests have shown that even
though a specific hard drive is set up through the BIOS to boot first,
Windows may boot off the other drive. When it boots off the correct drive,
it will often place the Page File on the other drive, which causes serious
problems when the backup drive is removed.
We have observed this problem both with Windows 2000 and XP and appears
almost to be a bug in Windows.
Does anyone have any suggestions for a work around? Are there any settings
or MBR flags that can assure a specific drive is the exclusive boot device?

Thanks and regards,

Garet

Re: Problem with multiple bootable devices by Pavel

Pavel
Fri May 19 20:05:59 CDT 2006

"Garet Cammer" <gcammer@NOSPAM.com> wrote in message news:%23oFNGp4eGHA.3692@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
> Hello All,
>
> I develop hardware and software products that provide backup services for files and hard drives.
> Currently we are trying to solve a problem when running a system with two internal hard drives that are bootable. Our tests
> have shown that even though a specific hard drive is set up through the BIOS to boot first, Windows may boot off the other
> drive.

Is this the situation when (say) partition 1 (C:) is active and boots,
but the OS is installed on partition 2 (D:)?

This is possible and is not a bug in Windows, so nothing to work around.

--PA

>When it boots off the correct drive, it will often place the Page File on the other drive, which causes serious problems when
>the backup drive is removed.
> We have observed this problem both with Windows 2000 and XP and appears almost to be a bug in Windows.
> Does anyone have any suggestions for a work around? Are there any settings or MBR flags that can assure a specific drive is
> the exclusive boot device?
>
> Thanks and regards,
>
> Garet
>



Re: Problem with multiple bootable devices by Maxim

Maxim
Sat May 20 01:56:59 CDT 2006

NTLDR always boots off the BIOS's first drive, and BOOT.INI must be placed
there.
Windows itself (kernel+HAL+drivers+userland) is booted from the device
specified in BOOT.INI.

--
Maxim Shatskih, Windows DDK MVP
StorageCraft Corporation
maxim@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com

"Garet Cammer" <gcammer@NOSPAM.com> wrote in message
news:%23oFNGp4eGHA.3692@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
> Hello All,
>
> I develop hardware and software products that provide backup services for
> files and hard drives.
> Currently we are trying to solve a problem when running a system with two
> internal hard drives that are bootable. Our tests have shown that even
> though a specific hard drive is set up through the BIOS to boot first,
> Windows may boot off the other drive. When it boots off the correct drive,
> it will often place the Page File on the other drive, which causes serious
> problems when the backup drive is removed.
> We have observed this problem both with Windows 2000 and XP and appears
> almost to be a bug in Windows.
> Does anyone have any suggestions for a work around? Are there any settings
> or MBR flags that can assure a specific drive is the exclusive boot device?
>
> Thanks and regards,
>
> Garet
>
>


Re: Problem with multiple bootable devices by Norman

Norman
Sun May 21 19:39:23 CDT 2006

"Pavel A." <pavel_a@NOwritemeNO.com> wrote in message
news:uGfOBG6eGHA.4976@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> "Garet Cammer" <gcammer@NOSPAM.com> wrote in message
> news:%23oFNGp4eGHA.3692@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>> Hello All,
>>
>> I develop hardware and software products that provide backup services for
>> files and hard drives.
>> Currently we are trying to solve a problem when running a system with two
>> internal hard drives that are bootable. Our tests have shown that even
>> though a specific hard drive is set up through the BIOS to boot first,
>> Windows may boot off the other drive.
>
> Is this the situation when (say) partition 1 (C:) is active and boots, but
> the OS is installed on partition 2 (D:)?

That describes a situation that I've seen frequently, but the original
poster seems to be describing a different situation. In their situation the
BIOS can be set either to boot physical drive 1 (which might be C but not
necessarily) or physical drive 2 (which might be D but not necessarily).

> This is possible and is not a bug in Windows, so nothing to work around.

I agree. But let's continue.

>> When it boots off the correct drive, it will often place the Page File on
>> the other drive, which causes serious problems when the backup drive is
>> removed.

When I searched Microsoft's Knowledge Base more than a year ago, the only
suggestion that Microsoft had was to install Intel Application Accelerator.
Intel makes an IAA for a chipset called ICH5R (I think) but not for ICH5
without the R. Intel doesn't make an IAA for the Crusoe CPU with ALi
chipset. So Microsoft's suggestion didn't help two of the machines where I
saw this problem.

Though, I didn't see this problem with two separate hard drives, I only saw
it with two partitions on one drive. Every time I told Windows to stop
putting a miniature pagefile on the tiny C partition that didn't have enough
space for a real pagefile, Windows faithfully stored the setting, and
Windows obeyed until two more reboots after that. Afterwards Windows still
stored the setting but no longer obeyed.

>> We have observed this problem both with Windows 2000 and XP and appears
>> almost to be a bug in Windows.

No kidding.

>> Does anyone have any suggestions for a work around?

Maybe Microsoft's suggestion might work for you? Odds are it probably
worked for at least one person, who knows where. Is there a version of
Intel Application Accelerator for your machine?


Re: Problem with multiple bootable devices by Maxim

Maxim
Mon May 22 11:23:42 CDT 2006

> it with two partitions on one drive. Every time I told Windows to stop
> putting a miniature pagefile on the tiny C partition that didn't have enough

Disable the crash dump feature of Windows, it forces Windows to create at least
the tiny pagefile on its SystemRoot drive.

--
Maxim Shatskih, Windows DDK MVP
StorageCraft Corporation
maxim@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com


Re: Problem with multiple bootable devices by Garet

Garet
Mon May 22 15:54:52 CDT 2006

Thanks for Info, everyone, but still I'm no closer to a solution..
Here is some more data that may help:
We are dealing with two hard drives: Disk 0 is the original Windows boot
drive and Disk 1 is a "bare metal" copy, having identical sector by sector
data, so both drives have identical BOOT.INI files.The copy was made from a
bootable CD, so the original drive is unchanged during the process.
When we boot up, it appears that Windows assigns the C: drive letter to the
copied drive (Disk 1), even though the BIOS and BOOT.INI both point to Disk
0 as the boot preference.
Since the paging file path name is determined by a specific registry key,
Disk 1 receives the page file, but BOOT.INI forces the system to boot off
Disk 0. Once this happens, Disk 0 will no longer operate alone.
The key seems to be how to garantee that a specific drive letter (in this
case, C:) will always be assigned to the same partition (on Disk 0, in this
case).
Can anyone help?

Thanks again,

Garet


"Maxim S. Shatskih" <maxim@storagecraft.com> wrote in message
news:%23pC9Tq9eGHA.1276@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
> NTLDR always boots off the BIOS's first drive, and BOOT.INI must be
> placed
> there.
> Windows itself (kernel+HAL+drivers+userland) is booted from the device
> specified in BOOT.INI.
>
> --
> Maxim Shatskih, Windows DDK MVP
> StorageCraft Corporation
> maxim@storagecraft.com
> http://www.storagecraft.com
>
> "Garet Cammer" <gcammer@NOSPAM.com> wrote in message
> news:%23oFNGp4eGHA.3692@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>> Hello All,
>>
>> I develop hardware and software products that provide backup services for
>> files and hard drives.
>> Currently we are trying to solve a problem when running a system with two
>> internal hard drives that are bootable. Our tests have shown that even
>> though a specific hard drive is set up through the BIOS to boot first,
>> Windows may boot off the other drive. When it boots off the correct
>> drive,
>> it will often place the Page File on the other drive, which causes
>> serious
>> problems when the backup drive is removed.
>> We have observed this problem both with Windows 2000 and XP and appears
>> almost to be a bug in Windows.
>> Does anyone have any suggestions for a work around? Are there any
>> settings
>> or MBR flags that can assure a specific drive is the exclusive boot
>> device?
>>
>> Thanks and regards,
>>
>> Garet
>>
>>
>



Re: Problem with multiple bootable devices by Norman

Norman
Mon May 22 19:21:35 CDT 2006

"Maxim S. Shatskih" <maxim@storagecraft.com> wrote in message
news:Ob4ZOwbfGHA.4880@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>> it with two partitions on one drive. Every time I told Windows to stop
>> putting a miniature pagefile on the tiny C partition that didn't have
>> enough
>
> Disable the crash dump feature of Windows, it forces Windows to create at
> least the tiny pagefile on its SystemRoot drive.

I don't think this makes sense. For a crash dump, doesn't Windows write to
the pagefile on the partition where Windows is installed? In my cases that
is the D partition, sized around 8 to 60 GB (varying from computer to
computer). The C partition is under 1 GB, just big enough for NTLDR,
NTDETECT.COM, emergency access from MS-DOS boot floppies or Knoppix, etc.
The C partition isn't supposed to have a pagefile.

Furthermore Windows doesn't even create a miniature pagefile on that tiny C
partition after every reboot, it usually waits for two reboots after being
told yet again not to do it. However, the option to write a minidump file
has remained unchanged since installation. So I really think the dump
feature is not the reason.

Even Microsoft's KB article which says to install Intel Application
Accelerator (even on a Crusoe) doesn't suggest disabling crash dumps.


Re: Problem with multiple bootable devices by Maxim

Maxim
Tue May 23 03:03:00 CDT 2006

> I don't think this makes sense. For a crash dump, doesn't Windows write to
> the pagefile on the partition where Windows is installed?

Yes.

--
Maxim Shatskih, Windows DDK MVP
StorageCraft Corporation
maxim@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com


Re: Problem with multiple bootable devices by Maxim

Maxim
Tue May 23 03:05:46 CDT 2006

> We are dealing with two hard drives: Disk 0 is the original Windows boot
> drive and Disk 1 is a "bare metal" copy, having identical sector by sector
> data, so both drives have identical BOOT.INI files.The copy was made from a
> bootable CD, so the original drive is unchanged during the process.
> When we boot up, it appears that Windows assigns the C: drive letter to the
> copied drive (Disk 1), even though the BIOS and BOOT.INI both point to Disk
> 0 as the boot preference.

BTW - so, you're having 2 physical disks with the same MBR disk signature in
the machine? Then nothing surprising. This is not supported and will cause the
conflicts, like the one you're seeing now.

--
Maxim Shatskih, Windows DDK MVP
StorageCraft Corporation
maxim@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com


Re: Problem with multiple bootable devices by Norman

Norman
Tue May 23 04:41:26 CDT 2006

"Maxim S. Shatskih" <maxim@storagecraft.com> wrote in message
news:OsWvC9jfGHA.2416@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
[Norman Diamond:]
>> I don't think this makes sense. For a crash dump, doesn't Windows write
>> to the pagefile on the partition where Windows is installed?
>
> Yes.

Then why did you suggest disabling the crash dump feature? Crash dumps will
go to partition D where they belong (on the systems I mentioned). When
Windows creates a miniature pagefile on partition C after being told not to,
that is just a plain old Windows bug.


Re: Problem with multiple bootable devices by Garet

Garet
Tue May 23 12:47:33 CDT 2006

Thank you, Maxim. I understand the problem now.

Regards,
Garet

"Maxim S. Shatskih" <maxim@storagecraft.com> wrote in message
news:uUHll%23jfGHA.356@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>> We are dealing with two hard drives: Disk 0 is the original Windows boot
>> drive and Disk 1 is a "bare metal" copy, having identical sector by
>> sector
>> data, so both drives have identical BOOT.INI files.The copy was made from
>> a
>> bootable CD, so the original drive is unchanged during the process.
>> When we boot up, it appears that Windows assigns the C: drive letter to
>> the
>> copied drive (Disk 1), even though the BIOS and BOOT.INI both point to
>> Disk
>> 0 as the boot preference.
>
> BTW - so, you're having 2 physical disks with the same MBR disk signature
> in
> the machine? Then nothing surprising. This is not supported and will cause
> the
> conflicts, like the one you're seeing now.
>
> --
> Maxim Shatskih, Windows DDK MVP
> StorageCraft Corporation
> maxim@storagecraft.com
> http://www.storagecraft.com
>



Re: Problem with multiple bootable devices by Maxim

Maxim
Tue May 23 14:23:03 CDT 2006

> Thank you, Maxim. I understand the problem now.

Correct. You have 2 volumes with the same mountdev IDs, and which one will
become C: is determined by the mere luck.

--
Maxim Shatskih, Windows DDK MVP
StorageCraft Corporation
maxim@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com


Re: Problem with multiple bootable devices by Garet

Garet
Tue May 23 15:24:18 CDT 2006

>
> Correct. You have 2 volumes with the same mountdev IDs, and which one will
> become C: is determined by the mere luck.
>
I assume you are referring to the MBR disk serial number at addresses
0x1B8 - 0x1BB.
Are there any rules regarding the assignment of these numbers on a new disk?
Cheers,
Garet



Re: Problem with multiple bootable devices by Maxim

Maxim
Tue May 23 15:49:33 CDT 2006

> I assume you are referring to the MBR disk serial number at addresses
> 0x1B8 - 0x1BB.
> Are there any rules regarding the assignment of these numbers on a new disk?

Dunno how Disk Management does this, but at least they must not be the same for
2 disks in the same machine.

--
Maxim Shatskih, Windows DDK MVP
StorageCraft Corporation
maxim@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com