Problem on 64 bit processor

I have ndis IM driver - tested on w2k+sp4,w2k3+sp1,wxp+sp2 on 32 processors.
All is ok.

When I install this driver on w2k+sp4 on 64 bit processor (Intel EM64T)
driver crashes, no blue screen appears and system restarts without blue
screen.

Question:
When I want to use ndis IM driver on 32 windows systems installed on 64 bit
processors - do I need to add some defines, or does need my driver code some
adjustments for running on 64 bit processor ? (not 64 bit windows, only on 64
bit processor)

Peter

Mark
Tue Nov 22 06:22:24 CST 2005

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 02:15:04 -0800, "Peter"
<Peter@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:

>I have ndis IM driver - tested on w2k+sp4,w2k3+sp1,wxp+sp2 on 32 processors.
>All is ok.
>
>When I install this driver on w2k+sp4 on 64 bit processor (Intel EM64T)
>driver crashes, no blue screen appears and system restarts without blue
>screen.
>
>Question:
>When I want to use ndis IM driver on 32 windows systems installed on 64 bit
>processors - do I need to add some defines, or does need my driver code some
>adjustments for running on 64 bit processor ? (not 64 bit windows, only on 64
>bit processor)
>
>Peter

Stupid question: you built your driver for 64bit mode right?
=====================
Mark Roddy DDK MVP
Windows Vista/2003/XP/2000 Consulting
Device and Filesystem Drivers
Hollis Technology Solutions 603-321-1032
www.hollistech.com

Susaant
Tue Nov 22 07:21:27 CST 2005

If he is using a 32 bit OS he does not need to compile it in 64 bit
mode.

The reason the machine is restarting without blue screen is because you
will have to set the options for it correctly.

Am not sure of win2k but on my XP setup in Properties of 'My computer'
-> Advanced -> Startup and recovery -> Settings

Here uncheck the option of 'restart automatically' in system error
case. This should give you a blue screen to debug your problem.

Susaant

Mark Roddy wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 02:15:04 -0800, "Peter"
> <Peter@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
>
> >I have ndis IM driver - tested on w2k+sp4,w2k3+sp1,wxp+sp2 on 32 processors.
> >All is ok.
> >
> >When I install this driver on w2k+sp4 on 64 bit processor (Intel EM64T)
> >driver crashes, no blue screen appears and system restarts without blue
> >screen.
> >
> >Question:
> >When I want to use ndis IM driver on 32 windows systems installed on 64 bit
> >processors - do I need to add some defines, or does need my driver code some
> >adjustments for running on 64 bit processor ? (not 64 bit windows, only on 64
> >bit processor)
> >
> >Peter
>
> Stupid question: you built your driver for 64bit mode right?
> =====================
> Mark Roddy DDK MVP
> Windows Vista/2003/XP/2000 Consulting
> Device and Filesystem Drivers
> Hollis Technology Solutions 603-321-1032
> www.hollistech.com

Ivan
Tue Nov 22 09:05:34 CST 2005

Is this supposed to mean that the AMD64 Windows will happily load i386
drivers? (I know first-hand that it won't load ia64 drivers :-)

"Mark Roddy" <markr@hollistech.com> wrote in message
news:7b36o15vnliv36hoafslohlqt7ne4jlpvv@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 02:15:04 -0800, "Peter"
> <Peter@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
>
>>I have ndis IM driver - tested on w2k+sp4,w2k3+sp1,wxp+sp2 on 32
>>processors.
>>All is ok.
>>
>>When I install this driver on w2k+sp4 on 64 bit processor (Intel EM64T)
>>driver crashes, no blue screen appears and system restarts without blue
>>screen.
>>
>>Question:
>>When I want to use ndis IM driver on 32 windows systems installed on 64
>>bit
>>processors - do I need to add some defines, or does need my driver code
>>some
>>adjustments for running on 64 bit processor ? (not 64 bit windows, only on
>>64
>>bit processor)
>>
>>Peter
>
> Stupid question: you built your driver for 64bit mode right?
> =====================
> Mark Roddy DDK MVP
> Windows Vista/2003/XP/2000 Consulting
> Device and Filesystem Drivers
> Hollis Technology Solutions 603-321-1032
> www.hollistech.com

Bill
Tue Nov 22 10:30:51 CST 2005

EMT64 processors will happily run 32-bit versions of Windows in which case,
yes 32-bit drivers will load and will presumably be quite joyful.

Bill M.

"Ivan Bublikov" <ivanbublikov@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:uSWoxY37FHA.1184@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> Is this supposed to mean that the AMD64 Windows will happily load i386
> drivers? (I know first-hand that it won't load ia64 drivers :-)
>
> "Mark Roddy" <markr@hollistech.com> wrote in message
> news:7b36o15vnliv36hoafslohlqt7ne4jlpvv@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 02:15:04 -0800, "Peter"
>> <Peter@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
>>
>>>I have ndis IM driver - tested on w2k+sp4,w2k3+sp1,wxp+sp2 on 32
>>>processors.
>>>All is ok.
>>>
>>>When I install this driver on w2k+sp4 on 64 bit processor (Intel EM64T)
>>>driver crashes, no blue screen appears and system restarts without blue
>>>screen.
>>>
>>>Question:
>>>When I want to use ndis IM driver on 32 windows systems installed on 64
>>>bit
>>>processors - do I need to add some defines, or does need my driver code
>>>some
>>>adjustments for running on 64 bit processor ? (not 64 bit windows, only
>>>on 64
>>>bit processor)
>>>
>>>Peter
>>
>> Stupid question: you built your driver for 64bit mode right?
>> =====================
>> Mark Roddy DDK MVP
>> Windows Vista/2003/XP/2000 Consulting
>> Device and Filesystem Drivers
>> Hollis Technology Solutions 603-321-1032
>> www.hollistech.com
>

Maxim
Tue Nov 22 13:25:41 CST 2005

From what I know, any 64bit Windows support 64bit drivers only.

--
Maxim Shatskih, Windows DDK MVP
StorageCraft Corporation
maxim@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com

"Bill McKenzie" <bm01_REMOVE_@csr.com> wrote in message
news:OGIx6G47FHA.3760@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
> EMT64 processors will happily run 32-bit versions of Windows in which case,
> yes 32-bit drivers will load and will presumably be quite joyful.
>
> Bill M.
>
> "Ivan Bublikov" <ivanbublikov@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:uSWoxY37FHA.1184@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> > Is this supposed to mean that the AMD64 Windows will happily load i386
> > drivers? (I know first-hand that it won't load ia64 drivers :-)
> >
> > "Mark Roddy" <markr@hollistech.com> wrote in message
> > news:7b36o15vnliv36hoafslohlqt7ne4jlpvv@4ax.com...
> >> On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 02:15:04 -0800, "Peter"
> >> <Peter@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>I have ndis IM driver - tested on w2k+sp4,w2k3+sp1,wxp+sp2 on 32
> >>>processors.
> >>>All is ok.
> >>>
> >>>When I install this driver on w2k+sp4 on 64 bit processor (Intel EM64T)
> >>>driver crashes, no blue screen appears and system restarts without blue
> >>>screen.
> >>>
> >>>Question:
> >>>When I want to use ndis IM driver on 32 windows systems installed on 64
> >>>bit
> >>>processors - do I need to add some defines, or does need my driver code
> >>>some
> >>>adjustments for running on 64 bit processor ? (not 64 bit windows, only
> >>>on 64
> >>>bit processor)
> >>>
> >>>Peter
> >>
> >> Stupid question: you built your driver for 64bit mode right?
> >> =====================
> >> Mark Roddy DDK MVP
> >> Windows Vista/2003/XP/2000 Consulting
> >> Device and Filesystem Drivers
> >> Hollis Technology Solutions 603-321-1032
> >> www.hollistech.com
> >
>
>

Philip
Tue Nov 22 17:24:45 CST 2005

"Maxim S. Shatskih" <maxim@storagecraft.com> wrote in message
news:%23hu04p57FHA.3544@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> From what I know, any 64bit Windows support 64bit drivers only.
>
> --
> Maxim Shatskih, Windows DDK MVP
> StorageCraft Corporation
> maxim@storagecraft.com
> http://www.storagecraft.com

Too bad that is not what the OP was talking about... he has a brand spanking
new desktop/server with a EMT64 running the 32bit version of XP or 2003
Server, not their 64bit brethen... and he is wondering why the system is
blue screening/rebooting....

My 2 cents... do you have a BIOS that has been upgraded to deal with the
additional CPU registers and setting them correctly... same goes for the CPU
driver in the OS... has it been upgraded to deal with the new features of
the CPU?

Phil

pavel_a
Tue Nov 22 21:22:03 CST 2005

Stupid question #2: have you tested on multiprocessor machines before?
EM64T processors usually are _at least_ hyperthreaded.

--PA



"Peter" wrote:
> I have ndis IM driver - tested on w2k+sp4,w2k3+sp1,wxp+sp2 on 32 processors.
> All is ok.
>
> When I install this driver on w2k+sp4 on 64 bit processor (Intel EM64T)
> driver crashes, no blue screen appears and system restarts without blue
> screen.
>
> Question:
> When I want to use ndis IM driver on 32 windows systems installed on 64 bit
> processors - do I need to add some defines, or does need my driver code some
> adjustments for running on 64 bit processor ? (not 64 bit windows, only on 64
> bit processor)
>
> Peter

Peter
Thu Nov 24 03:35:01 CST 2005

No, the driver is not tested on multiprocessor machine.
But I dont understand your idea,
What do you mean with "EM64T processors usually are _at least_ hyperthreaded"
?

> Stupid question #2: have you tested on multiprocessor machines before?
> EM64T processors usually are _at least_ hyperthreaded.
>
> --PA
>
>
>
> "Peter" wrote:
> > I have ndis IM driver - tested on w2k+sp4,w2k3+sp1,wxp+sp2 on 32 processors.
> > All is ok.
> >
> > When I install this driver on w2k+sp4 on 64 bit processor (Intel EM64T)
> > driver crashes, no blue screen appears and system restarts without blue
> > screen.
> >
> > Question:
> > When I want to use ndis IM driver on 32 windows systems installed on 64 bit
> > processors - do I need to add some defines, or does need my driver code some
> > adjustments for running on 64 bit processor ? (not 64 bit windows, only on 64
> > bit processor)
> >
> > Peter

Peter
Thu Nov 24 03:37:01 CST 2005

The ndis IM driver is installed on 32bit w2k+sp4 and it is running ion EM64T
processor.
This combination crashes without blue screen.


"Mark Roddy" wrote:

> On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 02:15:04 -0800, "Peter"
> <Peter@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
>
> >I have ndis IM driver - tested on w2k+sp4,w2k3+sp1,wxp+sp2 on 32 processors.
> >All is ok.
> >
> >When I install this driver on w2k+sp4 on 64 bit processor (Intel EM64T)
> >driver crashes, no blue screen appears and system restarts without blue
> >screen.
> >
> >Question:
> >When I want to use ndis IM driver on 32 windows systems installed on 64 bit
> >processors - do I need to add some defines, or does need my driver code some
> >adjustments for running on 64 bit processor ? (not 64 bit windows, only on 64
> >bit processor)
> >
> >Peter
>
> Stupid question: you built your driver for 64bit mode right?
> =====================
> Mark Roddy DDK MVP
> Windows Vista/2003/XP/2000 Consulting
> Device and Filesystem Drivers
> Hollis Technology Solutions 603-321-1032
> www.hollistech.com
>

Peter
Thu Nov 24 03:39:04 CST 2005

I think that option you describes forces system restart AFTER blue screen,
not before,
but I will try - maybe something will change...

"Susaant" wrote:

> If he is using a 32 bit OS he does not need to compile it in 64 bit
> mode.
>
> The reason the machine is restarting without blue screen is because you
> will have to set the options for it correctly.
>
> Am not sure of win2k but on my XP setup in Properties of 'My computer'
> -> Advanced -> Startup and recovery -> Settings
>
> Here uncheck the option of 'restart automatically' in system error
> case. This should give you a blue screen to debug your problem.
>
> Susaant
>
> Mark Roddy wrote:
> > On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 02:15:04 -0800, "Peter"
> > <Peter@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
> >
> > >I have ndis IM driver - tested on w2k+sp4,w2k3+sp1,wxp+sp2 on 32 processors.
> > >All is ok.
> > >
> > >When I install this driver on w2k+sp4 on 64 bit processor (Intel EM64T)
> > >driver crashes, no blue screen appears and system restarts without blue
> > >screen.
> > >
> > >Question:
> > >When I want to use ndis IM driver on 32 windows systems installed on 64 bit
> > >processors - do I need to add some defines, or does need my driver code some
> > >adjustments for running on 64 bit processor ? (not 64 bit windows, only on 64
> > >bit processor)
> > >
> > >Peter
> >
> > Stupid question: you built your driver for 64bit mode right?
> > =====================
> > Mark Roddy DDK MVP
> > Windows Vista/2003/XP/2000 Consulting
> > Device and Filesystem Drivers
> > Hollis Technology Solutions 603-321-1032
> > www.hollistech.com
>
>

Peter
Thu Nov 24 03:43:06 CST 2005

Hi Max,

The ndis IM driver is loaded in 32 bit w2k+sp4, and this os is running on
64bit processor. This combination crashes without blue screen.
Can be reason for example structure aligning ?

"Maxim S. Shatskih" wrote:

> From what I know, any 64bit Windows support 64bit drivers only.
>
> --
> Maxim Shatskih, Windows DDK MVP
> StorageCraft Corporation
> maxim@storagecraft.com
> http://www.storagecraft.com
>
> "Bill McKenzie" <bm01_REMOVE_@csr.com> wrote in message
> news:OGIx6G47FHA.3760@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
> > EMT64 processors will happily run 32-bit versions of Windows in which case,
> > yes 32-bit drivers will load and will presumably be quite joyful.
> >
> > Bill M.
> >
> > "Ivan Bublikov" <ivanbublikov@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:uSWoxY37FHA.1184@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> > > Is this supposed to mean that the AMD64 Windows will happily load i386
> > > drivers? (I know first-hand that it won't load ia64 drivers :-)
> > >
> > > "Mark Roddy" <markr@hollistech.com> wrote in message
> > > news:7b36o15vnliv36hoafslohlqt7ne4jlpvv@4ax.com...
> > >> On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 02:15:04 -0800, "Peter"
> > >> <Peter@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>I have ndis IM driver - tested on w2k+sp4,w2k3+sp1,wxp+sp2 on 32
> > >>>processors.
> > >>>All is ok.
> > >>>
> > >>>When I install this driver on w2k+sp4 on 64 bit processor (Intel EM64T)
> > >>>driver crashes, no blue screen appears and system restarts without blue
> > >>>screen.
> > >>>
> > >>>Question:
> > >>>When I want to use ndis IM driver on 32 windows systems installed on 64
> > >>>bit
> > >>>processors - do I need to add some defines, or does need my driver code
> > >>>some
> > >>>adjustments for running on 64 bit processor ? (not 64 bit windows, only
> > >>>on 64
> > >>>bit processor)
> > >>>
> > >>>Peter
> > >>
> > >> Stupid question: you built your driver for 64bit mode right?
> > >> =====================
> > >> Mark Roddy DDK MVP
> > >> Windows Vista/2003/XP/2000 Consulting
> > >> Device and Filesystem Drivers
> > >> Hollis Technology Solutions 603-321-1032
> > >> www.hollistech.com
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Peter
Thu Nov 24 03:58:02 CST 2005

Yes better is to install 64bit systems on 64 processors, but also 32bit os on
64 bit processor is possible to any customer that uses this IM driver...

Motherboard on this machine is: MSI945P-Platinum, Chipset Intel 945P + ICH7R.
processor: EMT64

It is motherboard for 64 bit processors - do you think that it needs some
BIOS upgrading ?



"Philip Doragh" wrote:
> "Maxim S. Shatskih" <maxim@storagecraft.com> wrote in message
> news:%23hu04p57FHA.3544@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> > From what I know, any 64bit Windows support 64bit drivers only.
> >
> > --
> > Maxim Shatskih, Windows DDK MVP
> > StorageCraft Corporation
> > maxim@storagecraft.com
> > http://www.storagecraft.com
>
> Too bad that is not what the OP was talking about... he has a brand spanking
> new desktop/server with a EMT64 running the 32bit version of XP or 2003
> Server, not their 64bit brethen... and he is wondering why the system is
> blue screening/rebooting....
>
> My 2 cents... do you have a BIOS that has been upgraded to deal with the
> additional CPU registers and setting them correctly... same goes for the CPU
> driver in the OS... has it been upgraded to deal with the new features of
> the CPU?
>
> Phil
>
>
>

Alexander
Thu Nov 24 11:24:30 CST 2005

In IA32 mode, the data alignment is not required.
Have you tried to hook a kernel debugger to that machine?

"Peter" <Peter@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:BEAC712E-21A8-4FFE-9DBF-977E2E01DE82@microsoft.com...
> Hi Max,
>
> The ndis IM driver is loaded in 32 bit w2k+sp4, and this os is running on
> 64bit processor. This combination crashes without blue screen.
> Can be reason for example structure aligning ?
>
> "Maxim S. Shatskih" wrote:
>
>> From what I know, any 64bit Windows support 64bit drivers only.
>>
>> --
>> Maxim Shatskih, Windows DDK MVP
>> StorageCraft Corporation
>> maxim@storagecraft.com
>> http://www.storagecraft.com
>>
>> "Bill McKenzie" <bm01_REMOVE_@csr.com> wrote in message
>> news:OGIx6G47FHA.3760@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>> > EMT64 processors will happily run 32-bit versions of Windows in which
>> > case,
>> > yes 32-bit drivers will load and will presumably be quite joyful.
>> >
>> > Bill M.
>> >
>> > "Ivan Bublikov" <ivanbublikov@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> > news:uSWoxY37FHA.1184@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>> > > Is this supposed to mean that the AMD64 Windows will happily load
>> > > i386
>> > > drivers? (I know first-hand that it won't load ia64 drivers :-)
>> > >
>> > > "Mark Roddy" <markr@hollistech.com> wrote in message
>> > > news:7b36o15vnliv36hoafslohlqt7ne4jlpvv@4ax.com...
>> > >> On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 02:15:04 -0800, "Peter"
>> > >> <Peter@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >>>I have ndis IM driver - tested on w2k+sp4,w2k3+sp1,wxp+sp2 on 32
>> > >>>processors.
>> > >>>All is ok.
>> > >>>
>> > >>>When I install this driver on w2k+sp4 on 64 bit processor (Intel
>> > >>>EM64T)
>> > >>>driver crashes, no blue screen appears and system restarts without
>> > >>>blue
>> > >>>screen.
>> > >>>
>> > >>>Question:
>> > >>>When I want to use ndis IM driver on 32 windows systems installed on
>> > >>>64
>> > >>>bit
>> > >>>processors - do I need to add some defines, or does need my driver
>> > >>>code
>> > >>>some
>> > >>>adjustments for running on 64 bit processor ? (not 64 bit windows,
>> > >>>only
>> > >>>on 64
>> > >>>bit processor)
>> > >>>
>> > >>>Peter
>> > >>
>> > >> Stupid question: you built your driver for 64bit mode right?
>> > >> =====================
>> > >> Mark Roddy DDK MVP
>> > >> Windows Vista/2003/XP/2000 Consulting
>> > >> Device and Filesystem Drivers
>> > >> Hollis Technology Solutions 603-321-1032
>> > >> www.hollistech.com
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>

Mark
Fri Nov 25 12:35:05 CST 2005

On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 01:43:06 -0800, "Peter"
<Peter@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:

>Hi Max,
>
>The ndis IM driver is loaded in 32 bit w2k+sp4, and this os is running on
>64bit processor. This combination crashes without blue screen.
>Can be reason for example structure aligning ?
>

The way you state this is confusing (see my earlier confusion.) AFAIK
an EMT64 system running in 32bit mode is a 32bit system. I work a lot
on EMT64 platforms running in 32bit mode and have not run into any
32bit flakiness so far.

If your driver is crashing on this machine it is most likely because
it has a software bug, not because there is some incompatibility in
the EMT64 32bit mode operation.

>"Maxim S. Shatskih" wrote:
>
>> From what I know, any 64bit Windows support 64bit drivers only.
>>
>> --
>> Maxim Shatskih, Windows DDK MVP
>> StorageCraft Corporation
>> maxim@storagecraft.com
>> http://www.storagecraft.com
>>
>> "Bill McKenzie" <bm01_REMOVE_@csr.com> wrote in message
>> news:OGIx6G47FHA.3760@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>> > EMT64 processors will happily run 32-bit versions of Windows in which case,
>> > yes 32-bit drivers will load and will presumably be quite joyful.
>> >
>> > Bill M.
>> >
>> > "Ivan Bublikov" <ivanbublikov@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> > news:uSWoxY37FHA.1184@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>> > > Is this supposed to mean that the AMD64 Windows will happily load i386
>> > > drivers? (I know first-hand that it won't load ia64 drivers :-)
>> > >
>> > > "Mark Roddy" <markr@hollistech.com> wrote in message
>> > > news:7b36o15vnliv36hoafslohlqt7ne4jlpvv@4ax.com...
>> > >> On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 02:15:04 -0800, "Peter"
>> > >> <Peter@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >>>I have ndis IM driver - tested on w2k+sp4,w2k3+sp1,wxp+sp2 on 32
>> > >>>processors.
>> > >>>All is ok.
>> > >>>
>> > >>>When I install this driver on w2k+sp4 on 64 bit processor (Intel EM64T)
>> > >>>driver crashes, no blue screen appears and system restarts without blue
>> > >>>screen.
>> > >>>
>> > >>>Question:
>> > >>>When I want to use ndis IM driver on 32 windows systems installed on 64
>> > >>>bit
>> > >>>processors - do I need to add some defines, or does need my driver code
>> > >>>some
>> > >>>adjustments for running on 64 bit processor ? (not 64 bit windows, only
>> > >>>on 64
>> > >>>bit processor)
>> > >>>
>> > >>>Peter
>> > >>
>> > >> Stupid question: you built your driver for 64bit mode right?
>> > >> =====================
>> > >> Mark Roddy DDK MVP
>> > >> Windows Vista/2003/XP/2000 Consulting
>> > >> Device and Filesystem Drivers
>> > >> Hollis Technology Solutions 603-321-1032
>> > >> www.hollistech.com
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
=====================
Mark Roddy DDK MVP
Windows Vista/2003/XP/2000 Consulting
Device and Filesystem Drivers
Hollis Technology Solutions 603-321-1032
www.hollistech.com

Mark
Fri Nov 25 12:37:46 CST 2005

On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 01:35:01 -0800, "Peter"
<Peter@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:

>No, the driver is not tested on multiprocessor machine.
>But I dont understand your idea,
>What do you mean with "EM64T processors usually are _at least_ hyperthreaded"
>?

I think he means that they come in various cpu package flavors:
hyperthreaded and/or dualcore so that a single cpu package can be up
to a 4-way SMP system, and if you have not tested on SMP systems
before this is a more likely explanation than EMT64 in 32bit mode is
broken.

>
>> Stupid question #2: have you tested on multiprocessor machines before?
>> EM64T processors usually are _at least_ hyperthr