RAD apps for db development

Hi

Are there any RAD apps to speed up one-many db application development that
are worth considering?

Thanks

Regards

Michel
Fri Feb 08 00:17:51 CST 2008

VB.Net is a RAD ,,, i believe that this is the only true advantage of VB



"John" <John@nospam.infovis.co.uk> schreef in bericht
news:%231b80xeaIHA.3400@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
> Hi
>
> Are there any RAD apps to speed up one-many db application development
> that are worth considering?
>
> Thanks
>
> Regards
>
>

rowe_newsgroups
Fri Feb 08 07:11:29 CST 2008

On Feb 7, 7:49 pm, "John" <J...@nospam.infovis.co.uk> wrote:
> Hi
>
> Are there any RAD apps to speed up one-many db application development that
> are worth considering?
>
> Thanks
>
> Regards

Do not take this personally, but have you spent much time programming
in VB? It seems you keep asking for ways to speed up development, but
if you are experienced with the language / IDE you would most likely
be able to roll out applications very quickly?

Thanks,

Seth Rowe [MVP]

John
Fri Feb 08 08:12:05 CST 2008

Seth, I wrote one complete db app in vs2003 (access backend) and sold it too
so its a commercial app but the time it took to develop and then to support
it afterwards (to change only one field in a table I needed to change tons
of data layer code) that it brought tears to my eyes. So I am looking a way
to speed up what is essentially a repetitive task, specially now that I am
hoping to move to sql server as backend.

Sometimes I wonder why MS doesn't do an MS Access version with sql server
backend (instead of Jet) as Access does the routine db access stuff quite
nicely without having to write tons of code. If it were possible to allow
developer write perfectly working db apps in 1997 (Access 97) then it should
be possible in 2008 too. Not an unreasonable expectation.

Thanks

Regards


PS: Not taken personally.

"rowe_newsgroups" <rowe_email@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a430e9f0-02a4-4550-a059-7ccfa82e42de@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 7, 7:49 pm, "John" <J...@nospam.infovis.co.uk> wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>> Are there any RAD apps to speed up one-many db application development
>> that
>> are worth considering?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Regards
>
> Do not take this personally, but have you spent much time programming
> in VB? It seems you keep asking for ways to speed up development, but
> if you are experienced with the language / IDE you would most likely
> be able to roll out applications very quickly?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Seth Rowe [MVP]

Marc
Fri Feb 08 08:27:58 CST 2008

Hi John,

I post this here also, as I don't know if you still follow the other thread.

What you want to do (edit a table as easily as in MSAccess) cannot be done out of the box in VS with the standard MS controls without having to write tons of code.

But you could use the tools from www.DevExpress.com, they have (under others) a grid that can do what you want.

This grid has two modes, 1) a standard mode, where all records need to be loaded into memory. This is good enough when you have only a few records, less than 10.000 or so, and 2) what is called a server mode, where only the displayed records are loaded on demand, as the user scrolls the records in the grid, or sorts columns, or filters records, etc.

When the grid is used in server mode, the user can edit, update, insert or delete the records directly in the grid, through nice inplace editors.
This server mode technology makes use of XPO, the ORM (Object Relational Mapping) tool of DevExpress. There are many ORMs out there, Microsoft is also (finally) working on theirs (Entity Framework with Link to SQL), but what DevExpress offers is well integrated in their control suite. This means, you do not have to bother for the SQLs, they are dynamically generated by XPO, and you do not need to code anything to handle the edition of your records. I guess, this is much the same as what you were used to in MSAccess.

I recommend you check it out in the donwloadable DXperience v2007 vol 3 for Visual Studio 2005, 2008.

- Download it at http://www.devexpress.com/Downloads/NET/DXperience/files/DXperience-7.3.7.exe and install it.
- Start the Demo Center
- Click XtraGrid Suite
- Click XtraGrid Main Demo
- On the left in the NavBar, in the Server Side section, click Grid Server Mode. This demo works with MS SQL Server only, but note that with the same code (your exe, if you prefer), you could connect to all main DB systems there is (this is another very unique feature of DevExpress).

Regards,

Marc
Fri Feb 08 08:39:55 CST 2008

About your thread "Refilling dataset without changing context", you will also need to implement some locking mechanism, to protect the data integrity when several users edit the same record during the same period.
FYI XPO can handle such problems, which are always a pain in the neck when you need to program it yourself...

John
Fri Feb 08 09:48:29 CST 2008

Hi Marc

I am using Infragistics controls including the UltraGrid. I presume that one
does that too. I think I am reasonably happy with the Infragistics controls
coupled with the standard code generated by vs 2008; binding source etc. One
problem with this approach however is that it will probably get slower as
the number of records grow large as, as far as I can tell vs generated code
loads all records in a go. Second problem is that in a multi user scenario
one has to do some tedious coding to ensure dataset is updated frequently
from any new records that other users may have added/updated on the network.
All this seems to me tedious but at the same time quiet routine for any db
app. This brings me to my original quest to try to find a RAD app that can
do this tedious but repetitive and fairly standard coding task.

Thanks

Regards


"Marc Greiner" <a@b.c> wrote in message news:op.t57mgwhpsj2bhp@mms...
> Hi John,
>
> I post this here also, as I don't know if you still follow the other
> thread.
>
> What you want to do (edit a table as easily as in MSAccess) cannot be done
> out of the box in VS with the standard MS controls without having to write
> tons of code.
>
> But you could use the tools from www.DevExpress.com, they have (under
> others) a grid that can do what you want.
>
> This grid has two modes, 1) a standard mode, where all records need to be
> loaded into memory. This is good enough when you have only a few records,
> less than 10.000 or so, and 2) what is called a server mode, where only
> the displayed records are loaded on demand, as the user scrolls the
> records in the grid, or sorts columns, or filters records, etc.
>
> When the grid is used in server mode, the user can edit, update, insert or
> delete the records directly in the grid, through nice inplace editors.
> This server mode technology makes use of XPO, the ORM (Object Relational
> Mapping) tool of DevExpress. There are many ORMs out there, Microsoft is
> also (finally) working on theirs (Entity Framework with Link to SQL), but
> what DevExpress offers is well integrated in their control suite. This
> means, you do not have to bother for the SQLs, they are dynamically
> generated by XPO, and you do not need to code anything to handle the
> edition of your records. I guess, this is much the same as what you were
> used to in MSAccess.
>
> I recommend you check it out in the donwloadable DXperience v2007 vol 3
> for Visual Studio 2005, 2008.
>
> - Download it at
> http://www.devexpress.com/Downloads/NET/DXperience/files/DXperience-7.3.7.exe
> and install it.
> - Start the Demo Center
> - Click XtraGrid Suite
> - Click XtraGrid Main Demo
> - On the left in the NavBar, in the Server Side section, click Grid Server
> Mode. This demo works with MS SQL Server only, but note that with the same
> code (your exe, if you prefer), you could connect to all main DB systems
> there is (this is another very unique feature of DevExpress).
>
> Regards,

Spam
Fri Feb 08 10:29:40 CST 2008

"John" <John@nospam.infovis.co.uk> wrote in news:#cxMKomaIHA.5348
@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl:

> I think I am reasonably happy with the Infragistics controls
> coupled with the standard code generated by vs 2008;

InFRIGistics.

I hate those controls. Overly bloated for nothing.

--
spamhoneypot@rogers.com (Do not e-mail)

Marc
Fri Feb 08 10:32:30 CST 2008

From what I understood from your other threads and this one, if you want to find the same easiness as in MSAccess, the only alternative you have today is the DevExpress XtraGrid in conjunction with XPO, used in server mode for big tables, and normal mode for small tables.

As I said, all what you need to do with the DevExpress Grid is bind your collection to the grid, set a few of its properties, and you are set. No SQL (no select, no insert, no update, no delete), and no code, no generated code, no dataset, you use real object collections.

With this, the user can edit directly in the grid with very nice editors (here I mean nicer ones).

The infragistic grid cannot do it, it does not know anything about Object Relational Maping and knows even less from Server mode.

I guess, if you are bound to a given control reseller, you won't be able to swap easilly for another one. I did it once (to be more precise, from infragistic to DevExpress) and it went very well for me.

Michel
Fri Feb 08 11:33:35 CST 2008

What keeps you from using Access 2000 , 2003 ,,,,,, 2007 ??

If you are so happy with it and it suits your needs , and your customers are
happy with it why would you bother developing a "reall" application wich
indeed requires some coding .

> Sometimes I wonder why MS doesn't do an MS Access version with sql server
> backend (instead of Jet) as Access does the routine db access stuff quite
> nicely without having to write tons of code. If it were possible to allow
> developer write perfectly working db apps in 1997 (Access 97) then it
> should be possible in 2008 too. Not an unreasonable expectation.

what keeps you from setting up a connection to SQL server from your Access
database ?

just my thoughts

Michel





"John" <John@nospam.infovis.co.uk> schreef in bericht
news:uO$4SylaIHA.1376@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> Seth, I wrote one complete db app in vs2003 (access backend) and sold it
> too so its a commercial app but the time it took to develop and then to
> support it afterwards (to change only one field in a table I needed to
> change tons of data layer code) that it brought tears to my eyes. So I am
> looking a way to speed up what is essentially a repetitive task, specially
> now that I am hoping to move to sql server as backend.
>
> Sometimes I wonder why MS doesn't do an MS Access version with sql server
> backend (instead of Jet) as Access does the routine db access stuff quite
> nicely without having to write tons of code. If it were possible to allow
> developer write perfectly working db apps in 1997 (Access 97) then it
> should be possible in 2008 too. Not an unreasonable expectation.
>
> Thanks
>
> Regards
>
>
> PS: Not taken personally.
>
> "rowe_newsgroups" <rowe_email@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:a430e9f0-02a4-4550-a059-7ccfa82e42de@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>> On Feb 7, 7:49 pm, "John" <J...@nospam.infovis.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> Are there any RAD apps to speed up one-many db application development
>>> that
>>> are worth considering?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Regards
>>
>> Do not take this personally, but have you spent much time programming
>> in VB? It seems you keep asking for ways to speed up development, but
>> if you are experienced with the language / IDE you would most likely
>> be able to roll out applications very quickly?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Seth Rowe [MVP]
>
>

rowe_newsgroups
Fri Feb 08 13:32:25 CST 2008

> Seth, I wrote one complete db app in vs2003 (access backend) and sold it too
> so its a commercial app but the time it took to develop and then to support
> it afterwards (to change only one field in a table I needed to change tons
> of data layer code) that it brought tears to my eyes.

Interesting, I've never noticed any really time consuming data access
tier changes, but I might be immune as I spend most of my day adding
such and such a field to such and such a table. But non-the-less, I
feel your pain when it comes to maintaining the code against db
changes.

> Sometimes I wonder why MS doesn't do an MS Access version with sql server
> backend (instead of Jet)

I'm pretty sure, though not positive, that you can hook Access into
Sql Server. As a matter of fact, I think it has an upgrade wizard
built in.

> as Access does the routine db access stuff quite
> nicely without having to write tons of code.

Well, I'll differ in opinion here. I hate to the bottom of my sole
(yes I mean the bottom of my shoe) the way Access handles db
interaction. It's a bad architecture in my opinion, but to each his
own.

> If it were possible to allow
> developer write perfectly working db apps in 1997 (Access 97) then it should
> be possible in 2008 too. Not an unreasonable expectation.

Not unreasonable at all.

> PS: Not taken personally.

Good to hear, many times comments come across as personal attacks, and
I didn't want mine to be taken incorrectly.

Thanks,

Seth Rowe [MVP]

Michel
Sat Feb 09 02:09:38 CST 2008

>> PS: Not taken personally.
>
> Good to hear, many times comments come across as personal attacks, and
> I didn't want mine to be taken incorrectly.

People seem especially feeling this way , if you do not share there opinion
or views


Michel



"rowe_newsgroups" <rowe_email@yahoo.com> schreef in bericht
news:d6d88ab0-9bf5-410a-9f00-e22393acc66d@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>> Seth, I wrote one complete db app in vs2003 (access backend) and sold it
>> too
>> so its a commercial app but the time it took to develop and then to
>> support
>> it afterwards (to change only one field in a table I needed to change
>> tons
>> of data layer code) that it brought tears to my eyes.
>
> Interesting, I've never noticed any really time consuming data access
> tier changes, but I might be immune as I spend most of my day adding
> such and such a field to such and such a table. But non-the-less, I
> feel your pain when it comes to maintaining the code against db
> changes.
>
>> Sometimes I wonder why MS doesn't do an MS Access version with sql server
>> backend (instead of Jet)
>
> I'm pretty sure, though not positive, that you can hook Access into
> Sql Server. As a matter of fact, I think it has an upgrade wizard
> built in.
>
>> as Access does the routine db access stuff quite
>> nicely without having to write tons of code.
>
> Well, I'll differ in opinion here. I hate to the bottom of my sole
> (yes I mean the bottom of my shoe) the way Access handles db
> interaction. It's a bad architecture in my opinion, but to each his
> own.
>
>> If it were possible to allow
>> developer write perfectly working db apps in 1997 (Access 97) then it
>> should
>> be possible in 2008 too. Not an unreasonable expectation.
>
> Not unreasonable at all.
>
>> PS: Not taken personally.
>
> Good to hear, many times comments come across as personal attacks, and
> I didn't want mine to be taken incorrectly.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Seth Rowe [MVP]

Cor
Sat Feb 09 04:50:13 CST 2008

John,

If you want the "simple" solutions you can make with Access, this is can
"almost" be as easy as in Access with VB.

However, when people start with VB or a more to the code based program
language like that, then most people wants suddenly all other things they
never would think about in Access. Just because that is impossible.

You will say not true, this the standard behaviour of mankind.

Cor

me
Tue Feb 12 22:31:00 CST 2008

We use and recommend Diamond Binding for doing application development in
.Net against a database. (http://dunnchurchill.com) It basically takes over
between the database and your business objects - so you just have to use the
object model - Customer.Find(3), Customer.FindByProperty(surname, fred) etc.

Free options include code generators - but their output tends to be pretty
limiting.

Cheers

"John" wrote:

> Seth, I wrote one complete db app in vs2003 (access backend) and sold it too
> so its a commercial app but the time it took to develop and then to support
> it afterwards (to change only one field in a table I needed to change tons
> of data layer code) that it brought tears to my eyes. So I am looking a way
> to speed up what is essentially a repetitive task, specially now that I am
> hoping to move to sql server as backend.
>
> Sometimes I wonder why MS doesn't do an MS Access version with sql server
> backend (instead of Jet) as Access does the routine db access stuff quite
> nicely without having to write tons of code. If it were possible to allow
> developer write perfectly working db apps in 1997 (Access 97) then it should
> be possible in 2008 too. Not an unreasonable expectation.
>
> Thanks
>
> Regards
>
>
> PS: Not taken personally.
>
> "rowe_newsgroups" <rowe_email@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:a430e9f0-02a4-4550-a059-7ccfa82e42de@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
> > On Feb 7, 7:49 pm, "John" <J...@nospam.infovis.co.uk> wrote:
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> Are there any RAD apps to speed up one-many db application development
> >> that
> >> are worth considering?
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >>
> >> Regards
> >
> > Do not take this personally, but have you spent much time programming
> > in VB? It seems you keep asking for ways to speed up development, but
> > if you are experienced with the language / IDE you would most likely
> > be able to roll out applications very quickly?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Seth Rowe [MVP]
>
>
>